Do we need women specific bikes?

An article in Cycling Weekly has Kristin and Steve discussing the rise and fall of women's specific bikes and whether we "need" bikes built for women, or more options for all  riders? Kristin also shares her experiences at New England Youth Cycling's Girls of the League Day, and Steve answers questions about flat top chains and Flight Attendant from Rock Shox. 

Transcript

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Kristin 0:00

On this episode, we're talking about the disappearance of women's specific bikes, my day with the girls of the NEYC, and then Steve is going to answer questions about flight attendant and flat top chains.

Steve 0:12

Oh, I am, huh?

Kristin 0:13

Yes, let's get this rolling.

Steve 0:15

All right, here we go.

Kristin 0:15

This is Kristin.

Steve 0:16

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a podcast about all things bikes, riding and riding together.

Kristin 0:24

Started off a little different, doing something a little different.

Steve 0:28

That's right.

Kristin 0:30

Okay, so we're gonna be talking about women's bikes, women's specific bikes. But before we do that, I want to reflect upon my amazing weekend that I had with the girls of the league with New England Youth Cycle.

Steve 0:47

All right, let's hear this recap.

Kristin 0:48

That's not your recap. There were two, I was there all day. It was raining and it was cold. And so kudos to everyone who showed up that day because it really did not. I'm gonna say my enthusiasm was super low.

Steve 0:59

The yeah, raining cold when it's almost May does that too.

Kristin 1:04

It's really depressing. But my highlights, I got to um lead a ride in the morning of a group of kids and then and moms and coaches, and then in the afternoon, um, I helped with a mechanic clinic. I pretended I knew things, it's very exciting.

Steve 1:20

And you have picked up many things.

Kristin 1:22

I have picked up many things. Well, I I think the things I want to share is there were a couple of moments that really stuck with me. So in the morning, after we did our ride, the the girls and I went and the coaches went back to the field, and we were practicing various things, and we were talking in particular about the concept of heavy feet, light hands, which is you know, that you're centered on the bike, you're heavy on the pedals, and you you're pretty light on on the handlebars. And I said to them, Can you guys take your hands off the handlebars? And they said, Can you know, basically, can you ride without hands? Like the ultimate light. Like, can you take both your hands off the handlebars? Yeah, and one of them was like, that's something the boys are always doing. But no, none of them could do it. So I hauled them back to the field and I was like, Look, there's lots of reasons to take your hands off the handlebars, right? To get your water bottle, push it, push something out of the way, point to something. But it's also just so cool to ride your bike without hands, right? And I actually rode across the field with my hands off the handlebars and turned the bike all the way around to head back to them. She definitely got some ooz and ahs, that was very exciting. Um, and then we we practiced that back and forth. And one of the moms said to me as I was leaving, she goes, Oh, good, teaching that thing that the boys always do. And I was like, I really didn't go into it thinking that. I just was like a skill. It was a skill, but also it's such a fun. I remember riding with you way back in the day. We'd be on the road, and you would be, I don't know, like eating, drinking, undressing, stretching, like you would just be, you know, hands off for multiple minutes, so comfortable. And I was just determined to be that comfortable, right? And I am, and I love it. You are now. It's really fun to be able to be like, I don't have no, no hands.

Steve 3:28

Yeah, and you get to a point where it's it's like walking, to be honest. You don't feel like it's risky.

Kristin 3:34

No, you don't, and you know what I said to the girls, and I've said this to you too. I always know I'm in a really good space with my bike, like I've gotten to know her and I'm and I've figured out her balance when I can take my hands off the handlebars. Right. Um, so there was that. So that was in the morning, and then in the afternoon, during the mechanic session, so I'm um we had a bike there that I had taken the rear wheel off of, right? And what the rear wheels the harder to get off and to put back on, especially for new new riders, new cyclists. Yes, and so I was actually having trouble with it, it was not my bike, and so I did the thing that Andy Smith had taught me. Andy Smith, the the mechanic with Cola Vita. Um, she had taught me this at uh Bittersweet. I I flipped it upside down, I put it on its saddle and its handlebars, and I popped the wheel in. And I'm like talking to someone while I'm doing this, and this mom walks up to me and she goes, do it again. Do it, do it again. And I was like, Yeah, sure. And so I take it off, do it again. And um that whole afternoon, it was mostly mom's where we worked through mechanical stuff, really basic mechanical stuff, like how do you change a tire? How do you take a chain off? How do you put a chain back on when it falls off?

Steve 5:00

Or do you just put your rear wheel in and out? Yeah, right.

Kristin 5:02

And a lot of them were like, My husband normally does this. My husband normally does this. But one of the women who was talking to me, her her husband had passed recently. Um, and she was like, I realize I don't know how to do anything. Like, I my daughter and I are trying to figure these things out. I mean, she's like, I don't even know where the spout is in the house, and you know, and I was like, so it was just a real moment of a real safe space for all the moms to just try the most basic things that I just don't know that they would have felt as comfortable. And it was just it was just awesome. And I I just you were beaming when you came back. I was beaming. I mean, a I felt super competent. I felt super competent, but also um I don't know, just being able to create those safe spaces, yeah, is you know, I so important. And um, anyway, kudos to everyone who pulled that off, in particular Tiffany and Kelly, because they did a spectacular job pulling off that campaign or that day.

Steve 6:10

Excellent. It was awesome.

Kristin 6:12

And now I have bittersweet. I mean, now you have uh ever wild next weekend, so I'm I'm gonna be just full of women's empowerment.

Steve 6:19

Little little side note on the on the rear wheel thing. I still have people when I who were watching me at the shop and I put the cage lock down on a suramer derailler. Yes, you know, and they've owned this bike for years and they go, What'd you just do? What'd you just do? I don't and uh yeah.

Kristin 6:36

People don't realize how much, forget just the lock, right? That you're talking about, how much that thing can be pushed forward and back, right? Like how like showing them how, let's say the chain comes off the front, right, and they're pulling on it, trying to figure out how to pull the chain to get it over the front. And I'm like, okay, but if you push the derailer forward, just push it forward a bit, it'll give you the slack and slack and you can put it back around. They're like, I'm not gonna break it. I go, Oh no, no, no, it's okay. You you can push, but you feel like it's it's fragile and you don't realize how much you can Yeah, how much movement there is there. How much movement there is there. Yeah. Well, future episode we're gonna talk about uh particular issue with putting the well the other thing is I said to them, I said, look, there are gonna be a lot of purists who are gonna say you should never put your bike upside down like with the saddle and the handlebars on the ground.

Steve 7:38

No, no, no. That and we know it's your absolute right, you're right, right?

Kristin 7:41

But it's but here's where I say Andy was the first woman on the Pro Tour as a mechanic, and she taught me to flip the bike upside down.

Steve 7:54

It makes it easier, it makes it easier, it does.

Kristin 7:57

And why should we I just because the Vellomati or whatever says you shouldn't also when you your chain, you don't know what happened, like your chain has all these loops in it.

Steve 8:08

Yeah, and you're like, how did that happen? And now you're like, wait, how do I untangle this chain with these loops? It doesn't make any sense. You flip the bike upside down, it tends to make it much easier where the chain will undo itself.

Kristin 8:21

Yes, yeah, it's no mechanic, it it has me determined to do some more mechanic clinics, I have to say. We've done them in the past, and I just think it's great to have that resource if we can. So, anyway, what are we talking about today?

Steve 8:39

Well, this might get into a heated discussion. We are talking women's specific bikes.

Kristin 8:43

We are, we are. This was actually inspired by a um article we read in Cycling Weekly.

Steve 8:52

Yeah, it was a really good article.

Kristin 8:53

It was a really good article. The headline was a little um misleading because it said something about what happened to women's specific sizes. Right. And and I I don't know there were ever technically women-specific sizes. It's really the question was what has what happened to women's specific bicycles? Set the stage in the in the article. The author explains how when she was looking for a bike in 2014, there were many women-specific options, which back then meant in between sizes, I guess, shorter top tubes, taller head tubes, narrow handlebars, wider saddles, with the idea being that women's bodies are different, so women's bikes should be two.

Steve 9:36

Yep. Yeah, it did it did get start off a little bit odd because you she said in between sizes, and she mentioned a 53. And of course, when I hear that, I go, that's not an in-between size, that's just how the company measures. Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, so many companies do odds, some do uh even, some do a mix of even and odd. So that's right. Yeah, there's no such thing as an in-between size.

Kristin 9:56

But there were a lot. I do remember there were a lot of women specific. It seemed like there were there was more attention to women specifically. Oh, there's a lot of bikes.

Steve 10:07

Oh, all the companies, all the companies had a line of of bikes that were marketed for women.

Kristin 10:15

Right. But the difference from today, today a lot of a lot of so that brings us today, right? A lot of bike companies still have quote unquote women-specific bikes. But back then they they were actually different.

Steve 10:31

Oh different, yeah.

Kristin 10:32

And today they fall into two categories. We have bikes that have a different geometry than um than than unisex bikes. Yep. Live, for example, that's what they do. They have they have bikes that are specific for women.

Steve 10:49

Yep, and that's a live as a division of giant.

Kristin 10:52

Right. Um, and there are some, like apparently the Cannondale Trail has a extra the smaller frames have an extra bend in the top tube. I guess that is the same. Hold on. We're gonna get into this for a second. Okay. So so there's those, and then there's a whole group of bikes now that the geometry on them is the same between unisex and women. But they're just branded differently.

Steve 11:29

Right. Well, yeah, so this is where, yes, you have you have bikes that are exactly the same with different colors and different saddles, and they're calling them women's bikes. We're gonna pick on one of the brands we do the best, which is but a lot of a lot of a lot of companies are dropping their women's lines now.

Kristin 11:49

Right. Okay, well, let's start with a a line we know. Okay, Scott. We'll use it. We'll use Scott as an example because you sell Scott, we are you're the most familiar with that. We're not gonna pretend you know every bike in every geometry in every rate, but you know Scott.

Steve 12:03

Yep.

Kristin 12:06

When I had my last my genius, my blue, white, and orange one, that was a Contessa.

Steve 12:16

Contessa. So Contessa was the name of their women's line.

Kristin 12:19

Still is, right? Or they're no it's gone now. Okay and but what was the difference between the Contessa genius at that stage and the and the one that our friend bought the same year, the green and orange one?

Steve 12:34

Mm-hmm. What was the difference? The color. Okay. The paint job and the saddle. Now, maybe, maybe, and I don't think this is the case, that the bars were 20 centimeters narrower.

Kristin 12:48

Okay.

Steve 12:48

But I don't believe that was the case. I believe they were the same bar width as well.

Kristin 12:52

I do remember saying to you, oh, it says that the contessa has a the shock is tuned differently.

Steve 13:00

Oh, yeah, the shock is tuned differently.

Kristin 13:02

I And you laughed.

Steve 13:03

I d I I do laugh on that. Okay. Okay, and and that's only because there is great overlap in the weight of men and women. Okay. Right? And so you can't say that it's because women are lighter.

Kristin 13:20

Right.

Steve 13:21

Right. So um there was no, so there's certainly nothing I could detect or in the feel of the so-called tune in the shock.

Kristin 13:30

Now the difference goes a couple more years. So that bike was a large.

Steve 13:36

It was a large.

Kristin 13:37

It was a Contessa in large. Yep. But fast forward a couple of years, we had a beautiful purple genius in the shop. It was purple and carbon.

Steve 13:47

It was it was uh sparkly purple, the front fade to carbon black and the back. It was so pretty. It was really nice.

Kristin 13:53

And you said I could not have it because it didn't come in large.

Steve 13:58

Yeah, because they they dropped all of their largest. What is it? Because women don't need large. Yeah, well, what ended up happening is they ended up, you know, having to just kind of clear out all of their large women's bikes at the end of each year because they just didn't sell.

Kristin 14:13

And why didn't they sell?

Steve 14:15

Well, they probably shouldn't have brought as many in, right? Yes. And they so that was they were just overstocked in that. Yeah, but I think But you need you need five foot ten, five to nine in some cases.

Kristin 14:28

We do exist.

Steve 14:30

You do.

Kristin 14:30

Well, it this also, but this also reminds me of um, yes, but there's two things. First of all, purple is not just for girls. Let me just say that.

Steve 14:40

Oh no, a guy actually a guy bought that bike and it actually because it was beautiful.

Kristin 14:44

Well, and it reminds me of years ago, we took Sophie to Dick's to get cleats. Yeah. Soccer cleats. Soccer cleats. And they had boys' soccer cleats. Now she's 11. Let's be clear, right? I'm not paying $4,000 for a pair of cleats, custom cleats. These are these are standard out of the box cleats. They have boys' cleats and girls' cleats. And the girls' cleats were in all the pretty colors. She did not want a pretty color, she wanted black. But then she started to feel badly. She thought she had to have girls' cleats. Then you also had it turned out that year, all the boys wanted pink.

Steve 15:23

Ah, that's right. Yes. They all wanted pink. Yes, the boys all wanted pink that year. Yep. I remember.

Kristin 15:28

And I actually wrote to Dix and I said, You are adding gender to a thing that is genderless because they are also European sizes. Yeah. European sizes don't use girl seven, boy nine, whatever.

Steve 15:41

Can we talk about how the we should use European sizing here for sure? 35, 36, 37.

Kristin 15:47

I just I was like, there's nothing between this 11-year-old girl's foot and this 11-year-old boy's foot. But all you're doing is adding gender to a thing that does not be gendered. So you have a girl who thinks she shouldn't be getting the black cleats, and boys who are, I mean, they were buying pink, but they were technically buying girls.

Steve 16:07

Now, I it'd be interesting to know if it the you know, whoever made it on the girls and the boys, if they were using different lass, lass is the form of around a witch shoe made.

Kristin 16:17

I was told they were not. But I actually wrote to Dix on Instagram, and they um they wrote me back and they changed the signage. The next time I went in, it just said cleats.

Steve 16:31

Really? Yeah. It did okay, you make a change at Dicks.

Kristin 16:34

Thank you very much. I don't know if it still does that, but at the time they were like, you're absolutely right. There's no reason to gender this specific thing. This brings me to back to bikes.

Steve 16:44

Yes.

Kristin 16:44

We had during the pandemic a beautiful green gravel, Scott gravel bike.

Steve 16:52

Yeah, it was a forest green.

Kristin 16:54

Forest green had the sidewall tires, the the the tan wall tires.

Steve 16:59

Yeah, it was a it was a beautiful bike.

Kristin 17:01

Yeah, and there were no bikes at a really nice price, and there were no bikes available.

Steve 17:05

Yeah, right.

Kristin 17:06

Okay, people are desperate to find bikes. And we had several men look at that bike and decide not to buy it, even though it was perfect, because it said Contessa on the top.

Steve 17:18

Very little on the top tube. Yeah, yeah. And then then the little kind of crown icon. Yeah, yeah.

Kristin 17:24

The crown.

Steve 17:25

So which by itself, you don't know what that is, but yeah.

Kristin 17:28

Yeah. So, and Scott's not the only one to do it. I did look this up. Juliana used to be women-specific because it was designed by uh Juliana Furtado. Who's Juliana Furtato?

Steve 17:41

For those who don't know, very, very famous mountain bike racer from the 90s. Right.

Kristin 17:45

Okay, she started her own brand, bought, created her bikes, and then she sold it, or she was yeah, to Pawn.

Steve 17:54

Right. And Pawn owns Santa Cruz and Cannondale and a lot of others.

Kristin 17:59

So today, Juliana's are not differently geometrically from Santa Cruz's. So apparently, I did look this up. Juliana, the Furtado is the Santa Cruz 5010, the Joplin is a tall boy, the Juliana Wall Wilder is a blur.

Steve 18:20

Yeah, they just they're just paying him different colors, probably putting women's saddles on them and calling it a day. Yeah, because you're buying into the women's brand, and and this is why a lot of companies are dropping their women's lines, because there's just no there's no diff, there's no need to have a difference.

Kristin 18:38

Right.

Steve 18:38

Right. Yeah, I what so I believe, I believe this all started. Somebody can look this up. I mean, we can look it up now, but I think there was an army report from like the 50s that came out with how women and men are different in their body proportions. And I want to say a this this just sort of went through the system, and so many companies used this as gospel, and and that's how we ended up with all these differences.

Kristin 19:09

Like I think it's well, it was well meaning, right? It was well-meaning the idea of making it women's specific bikes, and I think but at the end of the day, bodies are all so different, right? And so you can have men who have need very small bikes or have very don't have a good standover. I mean, ironically, some of these, like we should dip that down, as you were about to say, would be better, quote unquote, for men, because women supposedly have women supposedly have longer legs and shorter torsos.

Steve 19:44

Right. Right.

Kristin 19:45

But you have plenty of clients that could disprove that on both sides of things.

Steve 19:51

Yeah.

Kristin 19:51

Um, so here's my issues. This is why it makes me cranky. I actually I love live. Let me start with that. Like, I think they own what they do, they're women specific, and also they support women's things. Like, I think if you're going to be a women specific, but be live, right? Like, do something different. Anyone else that is just slapping different colors on things and calling them women specific or putting different components on things and calling with those maybe make me cranky for a couple of reasons. Number one is we talked about the green bike that wouldn't sell, so you end up with inventory that would be perfect for a guy, yep, but he won't buy it because it's a girl's bike. Yep. Is this a girl's bike?

Steve 20:39

Yeah, I mean, so yeah, like specialized had, and I have two in the shop right now. So specialized had the Ruby and the Dolce. They were two extra actually extremely popular road bikes given how much I see them in for service. Yeah. Now they discontinued them six, seven years ago now. Yes. Right. Um, and I believe those were definitely made differently than their other bikes, their Roubaix and their LA, probably. Um and then and then came with narrower bars, obviously the women's saddle and so forth. Um, and I believe they went down to a smaller size. Yes. Now, you know, if you're a shorter man and the women's line has the smallest bike that you need, then you you you get a little bit of a problem here. That's and that's kind of why I think they're dropping some of this.

Kristin 21:32

That's what I'm saying. Like if you have someone who needs a really small bike, and the only bike that that's gonna fit them would be a live because of the geometry and size, you put someone in a situation where, again, like, have I ever seen a man riding a live?

Steve 21:50

Right. No.

Kristin 21:51

I don't think so. They're probably out there, but you know what I'm saying? Like, but so so that's number one. Number two, you get Women who I think come into his and and think they have to have a women's specific bike.

Steve 22:07

Yeah, right. You're absolutely right. Yes. Right?

Kristin 22:10

Because we're still for what we're talking about, we're still putting out articles. We cycling weekly put out an article. Best women's road bikes for 2026. The six top-rated performance first picks proven by our female experts. Only two of the bikes of the six were actually women-specific. The other four were just bikes.

Steve 22:33

See, and and as you as you said earlier, you know, as we're talking about the bikes, we're talking through women-specific bikes, and then you, as you said, unisex. And that that is a horrible term for it. It just needs to be bikes. It's just bikes. And it doesn't and and you have different sizes of bikes to fit all different people and different geometries. Gender gender does not matter.

Kristin 22:54

There will be some geometries that work better for some people because of how the top tube is, how the but like that's within its size, right? You may say a Scot is good for someone, but it for somebody else, uh a Santa Cruz slash Juliana is better for them because of the geometry has nothing to do with their gender. Right. Um the other thing is um I guess again, like we end up in this weird inventory world, right? Where it's like, oh well, it's a women's bike, so we have extra small, XXS to medium, but then it's a unisex bike, so we have medium to XXL. So from a stocking and and inventory standpoint, that's why you end up with a bunch of quote unquote women's bikes. So they had to get rid of them. And the failure's not you know, again, I don't think the failure is that there aren't women that want to ride or that they overstocked women's bikes, it's just that there's like women can ride unisex bikes, and mo many most of us do.

Steve 24:03

Right.

Kristin 24:04

But men are not gonna ride women's bikes.

Steve 24:07

That's exactly right. Yes. You know what I'm saying?

Kristin 24:10

Yeah, like I even looked at everyone this is how deep I got into this hole. Because I also was like, we need to know what we're talking about. I pulled up all the teams from the Tor de France Femme of X Wift. Of X Wift. Okay, pulled up those teams. Yeah. Now there are there is a live team, so we'll put them aside. But the others, when I looked up the bikes that the that the team was riding, yeah, they were not women-specific bikes, they were the bike. Right. Right.

Steve 24:40

So now, okay, let's just talk about the small elephant in the room.

Kristin 24:44

Yes, small elephant.

Steve 24:46

The the women's bike, the the the sort of classic old school drop top tube, you know, drop top tube. Yeah. Um, there's a style called the mixed, which actually has that dual uh tube going down. But yes. So uh that bike is definitely associated with being a women's bike. Yes. And and it's only and the course the reason for it originally is so that women could step through because they're in their dress, right? And right, and that's how they have to be. Right.

Kristin 25:22

Because the high irony of the top two being super high on a men's bike is y'all are fairly sensitive there if you were to slip. Right, right. Right. So we're clear, right? Yeah. Oh, you're right. Okay.

Steve 25:38

Yeah. So there is, and those certainly don't exist in any of the high performance world. We're talking about real hybrids here. And I think there has been a little bit of a design change from some of the hybrids to these step throughs, which are getting rid of that slanted top tube and going to a full, almost like they have no top tube. Yes. Right? Real, real low step tube. And and and trying to make that unisex. And it it is becoming that. You're gonna see this in e-bikes a little bit more and so forth.

Kristin 26:12

I feel like e-bikes have opened the world up to that.

Steve 26:14

And it's great for for and especially like aging people who just can't get that, they're swinging their leg over the back side of a saddle to get around over the bike.

Kristin 26:23

Well, it's funny you say that because we were I was talking to someone about bikes, and she said, Well, do they still have girls' bikes?

Steve 26:31

Girls' bikes, that's like that's what she's referring to the the slanted topics. Absolutely.

Kristin 26:35

And I said, We really we just call those step-throughness now. Like we don't really they don't do it that way. It's more that it's just completely gone and we and it's a step through, like, so it's gender neutral. It's again, if you like my my dad and my mom and my dad dri ride the same e-bike, e-bike, which is a low step through, which is a low step through. Yeah, nobody said, Is this the girls' version of this bike? Is this the men's version of this bike? But you're absolutely right. You know, when we were growing up, the the 10-speed with the that was the yeah, that was the men's bike, and then if it was slanted more, absolutely that was a woman's bike. Not a bike I ever rode, by the way, in a skirt.

Steve 27:16

I still don't even know how you ride in a skirt, but but there well those vintage uh panther pictures out there.

Kristin 27:23

Yeah, absolutely. There are, I mean, there are I think the thing is also when we get away from quote unquote women specific but uh bikes, we can say to a woman, you want to pick a geometry that fits you, and then make sure the components also fit so a narrower handlebar, as you said, or like there may be other things that yeah, so yes, and and you know, this is why, you know, most bikes don't come with pedals, right?

Steve 27:57

Because people all have their pedal preferences. And there's there is something to be said where bikes shouldn't come with saddles, and there's certainly lots of podcasts out there going, you know, the saddle is also kind of becoming a throwaway thing because everybody's gonna change it to to a different saddle.

Kristin 28:16

It's not so hard to sell a bike that doesn't have a saddle on it when they come in, yeah.

Steve 28:21

But but actually, like the Scots are coming with actually quite decent saddles, and then and the old contesta line came with a women's saddle, right? Which was actually quite quite good. They don't have that anymore.

Kristin 28:34

So now they got rid of those saddles?

Steve 28:37

Well, they don't sell up women's bike anymore, so they're all coming with a unisex saddle.

Kristin 28:45

Well, so that brings up the next, I think that the important so I was on a call um years ago with is it Georgiana Terry?

Steve 28:54

Yes, it is. Okay.

Kristin 28:55

I was on a call with her because that's how I roll. Um, and they were talking about women-specific bikes, so she designs bikes, and the crux of the conversation was we didn't need women-specific bikes, but we sure as hell needed women's specific saddles. And I think my first one was a Terry, my first woman-specific saddle. Yeah, and that that came up because you know, a conversation you and I had where I was like, I'm having some like numbness, or you know, and you were like, Oh, it's fine, you'll get numb. And I was like, I don't think either of us wants that to have a lot of things.

Steve 29:32

It was a little bit more in depth of that, but yes, okay.

Kristin 29:35

But like that was my takeaway was like you'll you'll just get used to that. And I was like, I don't think you want me getting used to that.

Steve 29:42

It was I think it was more of a sit bone thing when you when you first become a rider, but anyway, it was we taught we got we got that.

Kristin 29:49

Yes, and I've gone through the years, I'm not the most saddle sensitive person, um, but I will say a a good women's saddle makes all I do really think that is a big place.

Steve 30:02

There's a difference to to have different different completely different designs. Yeah.

Kristin 30:08

But you're right, it's challenging if they're if they're not doing a line, if there's a way for you to easily swap those out. Well, there always is.

Steve 30:18

I mean, I can swap, you know, you can buy a new saddle.

Kristin 30:21

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like the saddle comes with the bike.

Steve 30:25

But that's a thing, is that so?

Kristin 30:26

It'd be nice if you could have like a credit where you're like, oh, right. If you turn this one in, you get it.

Steve 30:34

Yeah, and if it was a really good saddle, that would that might be the case. But because most bikes come with just saddles that they know are probably not gonna stay on the bike.

Kristin 30:43

I would love to do a whole show on saddles. But I do think when the biggest mistake I see from new women riders is their idea of a women's saddle is a big honking squishy, squishy one. Yeah, yeah. And in fact, that can be worse. Worse. Right, because that can really the further you go, the worse it is. Yeah, lead to chafing and and all sorts of other yeah.

Steve 31:11

If you're on a beach cruiser and you're, you know, cruising down, you're like, ooh, this is nice, right? But uh for about 20 minutes.

Kristin 31:19

So for about 20 minutes, and then after about 20 minutes, you're like, things are kind of chafing. Like even on a beach cruiser, like, this is not a great saddle.

Steve 31:28

I'm not I'm not very happy on that.

Kristin 31:31

Um, is there anything else that you would call like women specific when a when a woman comes in that you find you put on a bike more?

Steve 31:41

Or is the saddle the no really, you know, you're of course you're sizing handlebars to to the person, so it doesn't matter what the gender is. Yep. Um and certainly uh well I would say traditionally, women have gotten have used narrow handlebars, both road and mountain. But nowadays, yeah, and it's kind of shoulder width and so forth. Yes, but nowadays, with all of the professional men going to super narrow bars, like so much so that the UCI had to start banning them and they had minimum widths, and then they had to go, and then of course, that curated all that controversy with the women with professional women because it was too wide for them and so forth. But anyway, so of course, let's face it, a lot of the best professional men are dainty, right? Oh my gosh, no, absolutely most average women, yeah.

Kristin 32:39

Daintier than most average women, skinny, skinny people. Um yeah, I think that's I mean, that's the other thing. We're talking about bikes for real people, not necessarily bikes for racers. Right. You know, I mean we have people that race, but we're still real people eating dessert. Um the other thing though that I wanted to talk about, and I meant to I meant to be pull these out, I'm gonna do it right now. The other thing that was mentioned in this article was the idea that some bike brands were trying to also go to unisex clothing.

Steve 33:16

Yes, that I they mentioned that.

Kristin 33:19

It was like at the end, it was almost a throwaway, and I was like, What?

Steve 33:23

Right. So because it got us talking about now, they were they were saying they're trying to use like very more stretchy fabrics so that you know a woman who might want more of that sort of V-sh, I suppose, right? Where it would hourglass it would it would hug, it would, it would hug the waist and then expand out the hip.

Kristin 33:45

Great for my muffin top.

Steve 33:46

But men could also wear because it would just I guess expand. Like I think that's what they were getting at.

Kristin 33:52

There's two pieces of this that I wanted to, and I'm gonna actually I have just returned to the mic with our matching verge kit in man and female cuts.

Steve 34:06

Yep, different cuts.

Kristin 34:07

Okay, so jerseys. I'm pretty picky. I like a jersey that has a female cut. Yes. But I have plenty of friends who wear the just the boxier. They're happier with that, and that's great. Here's my real question Is the pad different on these? Because this is really what I want to talk about. Like, if we're going unisex, well, right.

Steve 34:34

The pads are they definitely sell men and women's pads.

Kristin 34:41

Right. And we're doing this last week. Right?

Steve 34:45

We are so uh you're gonna have to go to YouTube now is to see us mangling our uh right, but you can tell, like you can see the difference there. Yeah, can we see the difference?

Kristin 34:54

Yeah, no, they're they're they have different they are are they different lengths too? They do, I mean they are different sizes, but I would say they're definitely mine is shorter.

Steve 35:06

You know, going back now, a lot of the chamises in these shorts, uh I don't know where they're coming from now. I I I know a lot do come from Italy. Yeah, and I do remember back at the at Interbike at the trade shows, and there were a lot of different chamois makers there. Yes, you know, and and you you walk by the booth and you can see them talking to clothing makers as they're picking their chamis and so forth. You know, and they had quite the selection of men's and women's.

Kristin 35:30

Yeah, yours is much more um padded aggressively along the taint. Okay. I would say then mine is mine, is much shorter. See how you've got those ridges in the middle, and I don't have any. And you don't have any of those ridges. Yeah. Um, I think the butts are pretty similar, but you yours is much more carved than mine is, and these are supposedly the same model, right?

Steve 36:03

Just men and women.

Kristin 36:05

Yeah, that's my thing, is like can you really go to a unisex pad? I mean, I guess we need the same areas padded.

Steve 36:15

Yeah, I guess, but I you know, I suppose it comes down to maybe your uh again, your sort of relative comfort level. Like as you said, you can get along with a bunch of different saddles.

Kristin 36:27

But I can't get along with a bunch of different pads. You once got us gel. Oh, I did not like those.

Steve 36:35

Oh, that was a long time ago. Yes, I remember that. Those were progressive warments, I believe.

Kristin 36:39

I didn't like those at all.

Steve 36:41

So um, well, it came to that same thing with the the squishiness, and then it it creates chafing.

Kristin 36:49

Yes. Yeah. All right. So what's our conclusion on women-specific bicycles?

Steve 36:58

I well, there shouldn't be women-specific bicycles. Okay. But like, well do women right? I guess I do women want that that branding. Do women want that women-specific branding for themselves? That's the I guess that's a good question.

Kristin 37:21

I mean, I'm gonna take this from a marketing side, which is it feels like shrink it and pink it if it's just branding. Right. Right? Like, so live is they are actually different geometrically. Yep. And by the way, they're all in on women's empowerments. It's just that they're different. It's just not the same as there's no, as I understand it, there is somebody's gonna write and be like, actually, um, there's no match to a giant. Yes. Okay. So, but they're also all in on it. Like they're all in on women on bikes, they support events, they have they have women's teams that they're supporting.

Steve 38:06

That they have created a separate, completely women's brand, right?

Kristin 38:12

So I do think that women were.

Steve 38:16

There's obviously a market there.

Kristin 38:17

Yeah, absolutely. I don't like um, I actually liked the Contessa brand. I could never get clothing, which was annoying.

Steve 38:26

You know, talking about the pink tax, yeah, I will say the opposite was with Scott's.

Kristin 38:31

It was opposite.

Steve 38:32

There were some Contessa models that were slightly cheaper than the non-Contessa version, even though they were the same bike, essentially.

Kristin 38:43

Because they're like, we gotta clear this. No, no, no, not on sale.

Steve 38:46

Yeah, regular price, just a little bit cheaper than the Contessa model.

Kristin 38:50

I always thought the Contessa was kind of a cool branding. They just didn't, I don't think they did anything with it. Like again, you couldn't get a t-shirt, you couldn't get any gear that's a Contessa. I my helmet says Contessa. I have a Contessa helmet. Oh, yeah, you do. It is identical to your road helmet, it's just purple. Yep. It's a great helmet. Um, so I just think that unfortunately, at this point, it causes more confusion. It does.

Steve 39:19

I don't think brands should do that. Then it helps. I think they should either do what Giant did and form a women's line. Now, okay, so so Pond has done that though. They have Santa Cruz and they have Juliana, they created a women's line, yes. So, but it's exactly the same bikes, right?

Kristin 39:39

Yes, and I don't know enough about Juliana to know what else they're doing in the market. Like, are they doing what Liv is doing? Um, I don't get that impression, right? I don't they're not they're not um sponsoring a mountain bike team, right?

Steve 39:56

Yes, right, that's right.

Kristin 39:58

Um, so to me, that feels a little bait and switchy. I really hate what Scott was doing. I I really hated that in particular because that just felt like we're just again, like my blue bike, our friend Steven drive rides the same one today, right? He still rides it. My it was peach, peach and blue.

Steve 40:22

It was white, navy blue, and and peach peach, which peach highlights, which you went over with vinyl to make it orange.

Kristin 40:29

I made it orange, yeah, and I did that for Stevens, too. Um I really hated that.

Steve 40:34

And it's still it's a great looking bike, actually. It's a great looking bike.

Kristin 40:36

I felt that was very they were just we're here for women, but it was it was very performative. Yeah, I put it that way. Yes.

Steve 40:46

Um but I do think again, like Special Specializes dropped it. Trek had the WSD women specific design.

Kristin 40:56

They've dropped that they've dropped that too. They've doubled down on the women's saddles. In particular, they sponsor Allison Tetrick, who is a pro racer, um, gravel. She was she's done Rasputiza, whatever, but she helped design the Mimic, which is their women's specific saddle, and and like she's been really involved in in improving that technology. So like I think they're putting in my mind, that's putting their money in the right place. In the right place.

Steve 41:32

Yeah, in the right place, right?

Kristin 41:34

So um, I'm sure someone has a women's specific bike they love.

Steve 41:38

Uh yeah, I mean, guess just let people know about women's saddles. Terry is a big name in the women's test saddles. Yes. Uh Ergon has a fabulous women's line. Yes. Uh, and then SDG, you had the Allure, which is a women's saddle, which you really like. The Allure. Um, I think it's actually right on your trainer bike right now. Yes. And then WTB also is is known for their women's saddles.

Kristin 42:01

Yeah. I think I've tried them all.

Steve 42:03

Yeah. No, I don't think you ever wrote a week WTB. Sophie did for a little bit.

Kristin 42:07

Oh, did she? Yeah. Um, and I had a specialized one. Oh, you did have a specialized one. I did the white. We still have still kicking around. Oh, yeah. We have the white specialized one. I haven't tried the mimic, but I did have I knew about it. And so when I was at one of those mountain bike festivals, one of my girlfriends who rides an E mountain bike, specialized mountain bike, was complaining about her, you know, her hoo ha. And um, I dragged her over there and I was like, hey, can she demo oh right, yeah. Demo a saddle. Which I don't know that any she thought of that that was something because we were talking about demoing bikes, and I was like, No, you have the bike. You have a specialized. But what you want to ask them is if you can sp if you can demo uh a saddle. Um so something to think about. All right. I think we have driven this into the ground. Okay. Buy a bike that fits you.

Steve 43:03

Yeah, that's that's basically it. Basically, all right.

Kristin 43:07

Um, I have two questions for you to tech talk.

Steve 43:11

Okay.

Kristin 43:12

Number one is mine. I want you to explain flight attendant to me. Well, you have two minutes.

Steve 43:20

No, I have two minutes. Okay. Uh flight attendant is something that almost nobody has.

Kristin 43:26

Okay.

Steve 43:27

And it would be.

Kristin 43:28

When you even say flight attendant, what is it? What am I talking about?

Steve 43:33

Okay. All right. And it is basically for their forks and their their suspension forks and their rear suspension shocks. Okay. Okay. And it is an electronic system which controls the dampers in those shocks. So if you think about your fork now and your in your shock, they have dials on them that you can adjust. Um sometimes it's just high speed compression, sometimes low and high. Um Different different rates of the of the damper basically. And so what SRAM has done with their rock shocks line is they have used the access batteries, this exact same batteries we use in the wireless deraillers. Okay. Okay. Those plug in to units sitting on those forks and shocks. And then they can those are automatically controlled. Now it gets feedback from your bike from the power meter.

Kristin 44:31

Okay.

Steve 44:31

Right? So it and and then the fork itself in the sensors knows basically your inclination and so forth.

Kristin 44:39

Okay.

Steve 44:40

So it knows, say, if you're powering up a hill and it's going to firm it up. It's going to firm up the suspension automatically.

Kristin 44:49

So I don't have that. You wouldn't have the lock out.

Steve 44:52

No, you wouldn't have to lock it out or anything. And it's doing this very rapidly. It knows when you're going downhill. You can have launch control. So if you're starting a race and you know you're coming off the line, it's going to be super firm, if not locked out, as you come off the line and then, you know, and then release basically, you know, 45 seconds later type of thing. Oh, okay. So um all any pro who's riding rock shocks, I should say cross-country pros, uh, has it now.

Kristin 45:21

Okay. Why did you say no one can get it? Oh, yeah.

Steve 45:28

It's not that nobody can get it, it's just it's very, very expensive. You're just not gonna see it that much.

Kristin 45:32

Okay, yeah. That's it. Oh, okay. So that is flight attendant. You've just heard it enough that I was curious.

Steve 45:39

Well, it all it started out on the cross-country line, but now has moved to their longer travel forks. So you you will see it now on more trail, all mountain even in Dura bikes.

Kristin 45:52

Yeah, I can see that too if you do one of those. Like, remember on one of our trips we went to, it was a downhill park, but we had to climb all the way to the top of it. I could see that being really useful as you're going up because it would hardly be. Yeah. Got it. All right. We also got a question from one of our insiders, Chris. He asks, is there a benefit to a flat top chain other than aesthetics?

Steve 46:32

Chris wouldn't leave the voicemail, would he?

Kristin 46:34

He would not! Shame on you.

Steve 46:37

Okay, the flat top, so the flat top chain, that is a SRAM product again. Okay. Okay. Okay, and what it basically means is if you think about the side links on a chain, the side plates, you can almost think of them as sort of figure eight shaped, right? So round at the outsides where the pin goes through and then they pinch together in the middle. Well, essentially, we've been fitting more and more cogs in the exact same space, okay, right? In the back, you know, and and so every time we go from 10 to 11 speed and 11 to 12, and now we're gone to 13, they have to make the spacing between the cogs narrower and the chains narrower. Okay. Right? And so sometimes it's just reducing the width of the pin, so the chain is narrower, but also a little bit that the side plates are thinner. So if you can imagine if you make a flat top chain, and now instead of the chain pinching the middle where the there's less metal in the middle, and you and you make one side straight across, you've now added more metal and you've made the chain stronger.

Kristin 48:02

Oh.

Steve 48:02

So the chain has gotten thinner, and they essentially were able to make it stronger by adding a little more metal by making one side flat.

Kristin 48:10

Okay, but SRAM, so flat top chains are really only SRAM. Just SRAM. And it's really only for SRAM. And it's only for SRAM. So if you like that look, you're not throwing it on your Shimano cassette.

Steve 48:22

Correct. Okay. It will not work very well at all.

Kristin 48:24

It'll not work very well.

Steve 48:25

I'm sure plenty of people have tried it. Um yeah, and technically the flat top road chain is differently than the flat top mountain bike chain. They say, you know, you shouldn't switch them.

Kristin 48:41

Oh.

Steve 48:42

But I've also seen SRAM say, well, if you have to, if that's all you have. So we're gonna just call that one maybe a little bit of marketing. I I haven't looked at like at many videos recently on people switching them back and forth, but I bet it works pretty darn well. Okay. Yeah, as long as it's the same speed, right? Not 12 to 13, but yeah, but 12 to 12. Yeah.

Kristin 49:04

Okay. All right. Well, I think that is all we have for this week.

Steve 49:09

All right.

Kristin 49:10

All right, let's wrap wrap this up. Cycling together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in eastern Massachusetts, and Sundon Marketing, a full-service marketing communications agency.

Steve 49:24

If you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic suggestion, visit cycling together.bike.

Kristin 49:32

You can follow the shop and the show on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at Steve the Bike Guy.

Steve 49:38

All right. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

Kristin 49:40

Bye.