So you want to join a group ride

Group rides - whether informal gatherings of riders or organized events - are a great way to meet new friends, discover new routes and have a most enjoyable time on your bike. But joining your first group ride, be it road, mountain or gravel, can be a intimidating if you don't know what to expect. Kristin and Steve use their experiences both participating in, and leading, group rides to share how to know which group ride is right for you, as well as some of the etiquette and skills you will need to stay safe and have fun.

Steve also shares some updates on 32" mountain bike wheels as well as name changes for mtb groupsets from SRAM. And we answer our first listener voicemail - talking about waxing your chain.

Transcript

Kristin 0:04

This is Kristin.

Steve 0:05

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a podcast about all things bikes, riding, and riding together.

Kristin 0:13

Spring Easy here. We're riding bikes outside.

Steve 0:17

Right. Zwift is Zwift is a thing of winter's past.

Kristin 0:21

We n ever got back on after our trip.

Steve 0:24

No.

Kristin 0:24

We came home after having ridden outside for two weeks. Three weeks. Three weeks. And the basement's also a disaster. So it just was not worth it.

Steve 0:35

Yeah, we were actually, we got home and we were slugs for a couple weeks.

Kristin 0:39

We took time off.

Steve 0:41

My Straba fitness score went. Yeah.

Kristin 0:45

But yes, so we're back on the bikes outside. And it's also the time where people will start thinking about maybe joining their first group ride. And we thought we should talk about that.

Steve 0:55

Maybe some of the a lot of people haven't done a group ride, or maybe you're thinking about doing a group ride in a different discipline.

Kristin 1:01

Yes. Exactly. But before we get to that.

Steve 1:05

But first, what do you want to talk about? Well, let's let's bring up the old 32-inch wheel thing again.

Kristin 1:10

Okay. Aren't those new? We didn't mean the old wheels.

Steve 1:13

Well, we have been talking about this for a year now, and I couldn't believe it when I looked back. And so the Taipei uh bike show was just recently. Yes. And we first talked about it when Max has showed off their 32-inch tires a year ago. Yes. So since that time, a bunch of bikes have come out with 32-inch wheels. And in the Cape Epic stage race in South Africa, a full suspension 32-inch bike even won a stage. No, that's a team event. So they won it with his partner. Um were they both on 32-inch? No, they're just one of them was. That was um by Stoll, which is a Swiss brand. Okay. Um, I had actually not heard of that particular brand, it's definitely a European brand. So what I wanted to bring up here is yes, the industry is marching forward with this 32-inch thing, but uh there are a lot of challenges here yet to come. So, really what I wanted to say was if you're thinking about a bike or you just recently got a bike, I would not wait around for 32-inch wheels. Got it.

Kristin 2:24

If you just bought a bike, you aren't you shouldn't be feeling yes, you shouldn't have buyer's remorse because you don't have to.

Steve 2:30

Yeah, when 29 came out, it took it took generations of bikes to get the geometry right, and it's gonna be the same thing with 32 inch. And there was just a recent uh study done, I think this was published in Pink Bike, but a German company did some studies on the wheels, and it is the flex in the wheels is significant, and it can really change the feel of the bike, and there is going to be uh a lot of more research and development need to be done in the wheels themselves before the bikes didn't feel right.

Kristin 3:05

There's a lot of learning to be done.

Steve 3:07

Yeah.

Kristin 3:07

Now, do you ever see so before there was 29, there was well, you had 26 originally.

Steve 3:14

Okay. Okay. And then you had to be a half. Then you had 27 and a half. But 27 and a half and 29 overlapped each other. Okay. So they almost sort of were being developed at the same time. And you had 27.5 plus, we're gonna call that because it was a category. Yeah, and that generally meant a 2.8 or 3.0 tire.

Kristin 3:32

And do we sell sell 27 and a half?

Steve 3:36

Nobody really nobody I don't want to say nobody, they exist, but not really.

Kristin 3:44

So the question is do you see this new size replacing 29ers someday?

Steve 3:52

I don't, and the reason is I think that the the body challenges for most riders' heights are gonna be too significant to overcome. Okay. That the bike and and the bike is gonna not gonna feel as well. Right now, a lot of people will say a 27 and a half bike feels nimbler, right? Okay. And the and if you have, you know, tighter, tighter, uh, twistier trails, they kind of like the feel of a 20 uh 27 and a half.

Kristin 4:24

Okay.

Steve 4:24

Over a 29. The 29 has that better, it rolls over obstacles easier and so forth. It rolls a little better in that way. And it did seem to then be the sweet spot, which is why it really took over. And bikes were then were able to be adapted and they came out for even very, very small riders.

Kristin 4:44

Well, and you could have bikes for a while that did both with the flip chip. With the flip chip, yes. You know, yep. To show it wasn't that big of a difference between the two. If you could move a geometry just a little bit.

Steve 4:56

I mean, things did change a little bit on the bike, the bike felt different, but yes, you could do that.

Kristin 5:01

So, um, but I think there are just more challenges going to 32 inch than so maybe if you're not a racer and you're not being given bikes, don't be an early adopter.

Steve 5:13

For New England riding, I and I can't say it without having ride like ridden one yet. Yes, but we have such tight single track with uh sudden abrupt up climbs and that kind of thing. So acceleration is on off, on off, on off all the time. Right, and so that bigger wheel does not accelerate as quickly, and I I just don't I don't see it being the better wheel size, versus what what is Cape Epic? Because we also have lots of rocks and roots, which the 32-inch wheel would technically get over better.

Kristin 5:46

What is Cape Epic? Like Cape Epic.

Steve 5:48

Cape Epic is a stage race, a multi-day stage race in South Africa. Okay, it's considered one of the hardest mountain bike races, and it is a team event, so it's it's pairs.

Kristin 6:01

Hardest because of the technical elements, hardest because it's a really long race. It's because it's a stage race.

Steve 6:07

It's just it's re it's relentless, you know, a day after day after day of of hard riding.

Kristin 6:12

Right. But is it super technical riding? No. Okay, so in that case, the larger wheels might have been an advantage because it's not like here in New England. Right. Okay, that's what I was getting to. All right. So that's that's that. That's interesting. Yeah, no, I'm I'm with you. I don't I don't think I need to be an early adopter on this one. I wasn't on 29ers either. I hung on to my 27 and a half pluses for quite a long time before you finally convinced me to try the 29. So all right. Well, let's talk about group rides.

Steve 6:46

Group rides, okay.

Kristin 6:47

So this is the time of year. Um, well, I mean, obviously spring, summer, you're gonna be thinking about taking a group ride. And there's lots of different kinds of group rides as I was thinking about it, right? You have like the training rides I do with our PMC team. There's social rides like you might do on a Friday morning. There's um organized rides. Um, and so it can be a little intimidating, I think, to go on a group ride or or or decide you're gonna go to your first group ride. So we're gonna we're gonna break down some of the things to look for, and I think we're gonna break it down into road rides and mountain bike rides. Yeah. Gravel will float somewhere in the middle of the room.

Steve 7:34

So the middle with I suppose a little aspects of both, right? Right? A little bit.

Kristin 7:38

Yeah. Okay. Let's start though, um, with some, I guess, regardless of type of ride, some things you should do for a group ride versus you and your buddy are just going out to ride. So number one.

Steve 7:56

Oh be on time. Be on time.

Kristin 7:59

So uh not just be on time, be early. Be there's like what time you should arrive versus what time. I have a friend who she'll tell you what time she expects us to have feet on pedals.

Steve 8:13

Yes. Uh a group ride time is the ride time. Okay. It is right. So that is when the the group wants to leave. So when and many groups, if you are not there Bye bye, no, they're like it leaves. If if like the Friday morning rind, if it's 5 45, 5 45 a.m., that is when the group leaves. Right. Yeah. If you're 30 seconds late, you're not gonna go. They're gone.

Kristin 8:41

They're gone. They're absolutely gone.

Steve 8:43

Yeah. So I mean it's important that you even if you're two minutes early, you're you're not ready yet. You might get lucky.

Kristin 8:52

A couple people might wait for you. Exactly. No, I think that's important because when you say, you know, 5:30 ride, you really want to look at being there by 5, 515, make sure you have time to put your shoes on, get together. Yeah. The other thing is um maybe look at your bike before you get there, if you can.

Steve 9:17

Well, you have yes, you obviously need to make sure your bike not obviously.

Kristin 9:21

How many rides have you gone? A group ride you've gone to, somebody gets out of their car and like, oh my gosh, my wheel is flat. Oh, I don't seem to have any tubes flat. Like it, it's not obvious.

Steve 9:32

Okay, you gotta be organized. You're right. You get right. It is not things happen on bikes, and but you do so so that is um, if it's a morning group ride, be prepared the night before.

Kristin 9:48

You have finally learned this lesson.

Steve 9:51

Oh, yeah, don't do what I do. Scramble around in the morning.

Kristin 9:55

Around 4 45 trying to find your kit.

Steve 9:58

Get ready the right the night before.

Kristin 10:00

Have you seen my jacket? Where is everything? But even the bike. Like if you can, if you can put your bike, I'll put my bike in my car. Like, I'll put it down.

Steve 10:11

Safe for you to do, then I'll put it in. You need to drive somewhere.

Kristin 10:14

Yeah, I will just just so it's one less thing I have to worry about, make sure we do have one woman who will show up to our mountain bike rides, and she's wearing her helmet as she drives up, and she's like, it's the only way I can be assured that I remember my helmet. So, you know, do whatever it takes. And then also, regardless of ride, um, you want to be semi, you you want to be fairly self-sufficient, right?

Steve 10:40

You do, and this is this is funny because you you actually you want to have the things that you need to be self-sufficient, even if you know you're gonna be relying on other people. Yeah. So, um, and so you basically want to be able to fix a flat, really. Right.

Kristin 10:56

Um your flat stuff, right?

Steve 10:58

And so even if you're a person who needs help fixing the flat, usually if you flatten a group ride, a couple people will stop with you. Yeah. And if you need help, that's fine. But you don't want to say, hey, do you have a tube that I can use? And do you oh do you have a pumper of CO2s?

Kristin 11:13

Yeah. Right.

Steve 11:14

That will that that will happen that it happens, but just try to be self-sufficient.

Kristin 11:19

Yeah, I remember um jumping onto a group ride. I was out by myself and I went through a neighborhood and there were some PMC riders, and they're like, Oh, you should ride with us. And I was like, Yeah, no problem. So I was riding with them, and one got a flat, and everybody had stuff. We uh, but it all just kind of we all just stood there with it out in our hands until I said, But I can do this, but I had not done it before, except at the shop. So, but I was proud of everybody had stuff, like everyone had what they needed. The other thing is a bottle of water, and again, I know that seems obvious, but I have gone to rides where someone didn't bring hydration, they just didn't think we were gonna be out there that long. Do I really need a water bottle? It's like you always need water, you always need water, you should always have a little snack because you just don't even know, you know, your energy could could plummet. Again, you might not think it's a long ride, but just bring a little snack. Yep. Um yeah. Anyway, all right. Let's start with um group rides. And when this came up, you said You mean road group rides? Road group rides, sorry. Let's start with road group rides. Um, when this came up, you were like, Well, you they gotta make sure they know what they're in for. And why why did you say that to me?

Steve 12:35

Did I did I say that?

Kristin 12:37

Yes, you did, because I think you were thinking of the Friday morning rides that we used to have at the coffee shop.

Steve 12:46

Yeah, but a lot, there's a lot of road group rides everywhere in the country and everywhere in the world, which are fast. We'll just put it that way. Spirited, spirited, spirited, right? Right, and this is something they they can be incredibly fun and social and extremely good for like as a workout and your fitness and your cycling fitness overall.

Kristin 13:17

Right.

Steve 13:18

Um, but there is some like you have to learn how that group reacts and interacts with each other, yeah and and how in general, well, every every group is gonna have their own little ins and outs, right, unique to them. And then on top of that, there are just the general rules of the road that you have to get used to.

Kristin 13:37

Yeah, so I think so the ride that you used to do and I would come, I don't, I don't think since they moved from uh Pete's Coffee, I don't think it's quite had the the big group that it used to have.

Steve 13:49

No, and it was actually it was every morning, although Friday was the biggest day.

Kristin 13:54

So this was a organic group ride, right? It wasn't through a shop, it wasn't org technically organized by anybody. Right. And you did need to, even though I was going with you, there was no like, okay, this is the route we're gonna do, or this is how long it's gonna be. It just was like, let's go. And then I remember we were riding and everyone's chatting, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, and then we turned a corner, and it's like y'all got like the dog whistle that said, Go! And you were off, which again, I had not been quite prepared for, and then you then it was Peloton, and then it was so this is my way of saying maybe your first group ride should be a uh shop ride or a ride through like a an organized group, like the Charles River Wheelers, because if you do an organized group ride, they're gonna tell you.

Steve 14:49

Yeah, they're gonna give you, I guess, some pointers.

Kristin 14:51

No, they're gonna tell you, okay, if you go to Landry's for a group ride, yes, you're gonna know how many miles it's gonna be here. Yeah, you're gonna know what the average pace is going to be. One chili, two chili, three chili, four. They have a they have a they have a plan. They do, but you're gonna know, you know, it's average speed's gonna be 13 miles per hour. Right? You're gonna know is it drop or no drop?

Steve 15:20

That's a good point. That's a great one. So drop or no drop, that means um will if you fall off the back of the group, are they gonna wait for you?

Kristin 15:30

Are they gonna wait for you?

Steve 15:31

Somebody gonna wait for you. Right, right.

Kristin 15:33

Exactly. Which I'm gonna tell you on those Friday morning, Friday, they don't wait for you.

Steve 15:37

No, no, that's a drop ride.

Kristin 15:38

I hope you know how to get back. Exactly. Um, and even on the average miles per hour, I have to say, this is something it's unique to road, right? We don't tend to talk about the average miles per hour with a mountain bike ride. Right. And what I find interesting is um you gotta ask, pause or no pause?

Steve 16:01

You oh right?

Kristin 16:03

Because okay, because I had I had a group and they're like, we maintain an average speed of 15 miles per hour. Right. And one of our other friends was like, Well, I can't, I can't go on that ride because that is way too fast for me. But I know that group, and their Garmin's autopause when they stop, which means they're not really maintaining 15 miles an hour.

Steve 16:27

They're usually it's not even when they stop, it's like below four miles an hour. So it's that whole period coming to a stop as well.

Kristin 16:35

Yes, they're actually average because I've ridden with them, they're actually averaging more like 13 miles per hour, right? Which this person couldn't manage because she didn't auto-stop her garment. Right. So, you know, so but you would know that again, like the the um the formal group rides give you a an average pace.

Steve 16:57

Yeah, they'll usually and they'll break up, they'll often have different groups. This group, you know, oh, we're gonna have an A group that's uh 18 to 20, you know, you know, 15 to 18, and then 12 to 15 type of thing.

Kristin 17:08

Yeah, and they and they may even have like this this is a group ride for beginners. Like we know our friend Nancy for many years, she may still do it, ran the group beginner group ride for her local shop, um, to just teach them all the the um the intricacies of a group road ride, which is different than riding your bike by yourself on the road, right? So we talked on a last show about um not the last show, we talked in the past on a show about about un about bike skills, right? Underrated bike skills, and one of them being being able to take your hands off of the handlebars so that you can take a drink and you can signal and you can point to things. Like those are essential during a rope.

Steve 17:56

Yeah, I have had customers who or and seen people who can't drink while they're riding, they have to comfortably stop so they can take their bottle out. Right. You're not prepared for really a group ride in that case.

Kristin 18:10

You're not prepared for a group ride that's not going to stop. Exactly.

Steve 18:15

Yes, right. Like not like say an organized ride where where there's a lot like there's 500 people riding, but you could be by yourself or the next person in front of you is 50 feet, and the per you know, and you can just stop when you want to and then restart. Yeah. Yes. Let's say it's a group of 20 people, and this is a blob of 20, Peloton of 20, that's not going to stop, right? You you you have to be able to drink drink. Right.

Kristin 18:36

And you have to be able to point at things to tell them if there's like whole things.

Steve 18:41

Pointing is like so like the hand signals and the herbal signals are if you do not know these, the the only the way to really learn them is to a couple. I'm sure YouTube has great, great videos on this. Yeah. But then also being in a group ride to then learn that.

Kristin 18:59

Right.

Steve 18:59

Um, you are pointing down at holes, and you and when there's a hole, like a pothole, you yell also yell hole.

Kristin 19:07

Yes.

Steve 19:07

Um, there's um slowing hand signals, stopping hand signals. Um and so all of those are crucial. When you're riding at 20 miles an hour inches from each other wheel. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin 19:22

Yep. So that's and you would know that again, if you're doing a formal organized ride where they've told you some of these things, right? The average speed's gonna be this, we don't stop, whatever, versus again, more of an organic community ride. Right, right. And and I don't, I'm not saying there's anything. I love the community rides, I love the spirit of them, but but they are because they're unorganized, right? There's no leader, there's nobody saying, like, okay, guys, let's get started. Have introducing it. No, there's a there's a start time, like it's literally, there's a route, and we'll see all at the end. And and and there's a pace. Now, I will say one of the things in those more spicy rides, like that one we're talking about, right? There's there's we've been talking about a the Peloton and the pace line, and there's even a rhythm to that, right? Because you can end up in the line, you're in the line, and suddenly people start peeling off, and suddenly you're at the front of the line, and you're like, what happened there?

Steve 20:30

That's right. The the the spicy rides, you will you will yeah, you'll be have your leader and you'll be doing turns out front. Right. Right. And so you'll be in a pace line, and you know, you don't have to spend when if you find yourself at the front, you can stay there as long as you want to. Right. And usually what people will do is they will go too long because they feel like they have to, and then they blow themselves up. And one of the hardest things, so when you peel off, and there is a sick, there's also a symbol for an elbow flick, or as to say, I am moving over, it's your you know, you're the person behind you, you're taking over. And then you're coming down along the left side of the paceline. So you're trying to uh well, they're going faster than you now, right? And you but you have to latch onto the back. Oh, it's hard, and that can be hard, really hard. And if you happen to suddenly hit a hill after you've taken your turn up front, yeah, and you're now have to latch onto the back and the and the whole group just hit a little hill, yeah, boom, you could be gone.

Kristin 21:44

You you absolutely have experienced it.

Steve 21:46

The thing is, is that on don't and on these kind of group rides, if if you detach from the group and they're gone, you see them at the end and don't worry about it. And it could and it could happen a lot. And then that won't it'll be really rewarding that day that you stay with the group.

Kristin 22:05

And this is where the importance of being self-sufficient is, yes, because they aren't, especially again, if it's a organic ride, right? You and I go to the ride. If I get dropped, if I don't know how to get back, um That's a problem. You need to know where you're so you either need to um have a friend who gives who says, We always do this route, I'll send it to you, so you can put it on your garment, or just have a you know, navigate me back.

Steve 22:36

Yeah, or mental knowledge of the route. So sometimes this you can look at a map and know it by a part of it.

Kristin 22:41

Exactly. So that's where um, again, if it's a publicized, organized group ride, that's probably a little less likely to happen because those are usually designed to be, if not no drop, will split the group, right? Like if you're and sometimes there might even be a sweep. Yes, exactly, even on the road. So um that's why I was saying, like, if if you just haven't done a group ride, a group road ride before, a beginner's one, you know, something where somebody goes through the basics and you learn about, and I've done a couple of these over the years, help both as rider and helper. Um it's where I first heard somebody say, Well, I I I can't point, I'm not going to point to things because our our ride leader was like, Welcome to this ride, and this is what we're gonna do, and don't forget to point to things. One of the riders was like, I don't do that. I don't do that because I don't take my hands off the handlebars, right? Right? So, and you just probably didn't realize how important a skill that was until you're in an environment where you're you're shown it's not just it's it's so okay. So let's bring up use for it.

Steve 23:56

Let's bring up one of the largest group rides in the country, organized ones, if we're gonna call it that, and that is the pan mask challenge.

Kristin 24:02

Yes.

Steve 24:03

And I just had a customer come in the other day, and we were talking about that, and then he was we were talking about the unpaved gravel version, and he might do that now, and he and then he said something to me, which is I hear frequently, yeah, I don't like to do the summer pan mass anymore because those people scare me. And and what he's saying is that for some for for many of those riders who are casual riders, this is their only group ride outside of maybe a couple friends.

Kristin 24:36

Hold on, yeah, no, let's let's put it that way. As one who has ridden in that ride, yeah, right, in that group, uh, and and he's not wrong, right? I it's it's a combination of uh more brains, less intelligence, which happens anytime you get too many people together, and a um righteousness and happiness. We're out here riding for cancer for cancer, right? Like I totally get it. And what happens, particularly at the start, is there's so many people leaving all at once, and they're all at different paces. And I'm I'm sorry, there's no group ride that can get you ready to ride with that many people that close together. Um, some, you know, they're they're trying to pace line right away, and you're like, guys, calm down. And they will jump onto the other side of the double line, which is crazy. But they want to. Because they're open roads. Yeah, because they're open roads. So it's a combination of factors that that leads to, I think leads to some people leaving a little early from or or leaving from their homes in Wellesley, right? And not going to the group start. Even even if you ride regularly with five to ten people, there's no way to prepare for riding with 5,000 people. Well, there is.

Steve 25:55

Because again, this is the things we're talking about, though. Because they hand signals, staying, maintaining a predictable line, yep, uh, maintaining a predictable pace, no sudden breaking, yeah, all that kind of stuff. So that's the way you prepare. Everybody does that, it works.

Kristin 26:13

Okay, but everybody does it a little differently, like their pace is a little different. You know who's I'm gonna who I'm gonna say is some of the worst during a ride like that? It's the most experienced riders because they're the ones who want to be in their pace line. They have no patience. The first year I did the PMC, I was on the wreck path, the Cape Cod Rail Trail. I was by myself. I there was someone handing out popsicles, right? So I swerved over to grab my popsicle. Yes. And then I came back. I was still in my lane. Yeah, I was still not, and a pace line came flying past me on my left, yelling at me, yeah, and would say, Well, I didn't maintain a predictable. You saw the lady with the popsicle, we're on the rail trail.

Steve 27:03

And they were behind you, and they were behind me. I agree, I agree, and it's a rail trail.

Kristin 27:08

But but I'm gonna say often it's the more experienced people, you know, having no patience for again, even someone who maybe they again they have ridden with a group and and they're predictable in their way. They're they're going, but then there's another group and they're going a slightly different.

Steve 27:30

Yeah, they're they're doing their own little group uh thing and not without uh realization or I should say uh acceptance of the fact that they're surrounded by all these new other new people.

Kristin 27:43

Yeah, and who are also bobbling and you know, so it it no, it's it's it is it is a tricky group pride.

Steve 27:50

That one year that I followed in the car. Yes, and I forget, I was coming down to get you, and I figured I would just sort of follow the route and do uh roadside assistance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's what I was doing, right? Yep. A guy in front of me just like everybody was making this sort of sweeping left-hand turn, and he just he just went straight, straight into the woods. Like straight into the woods.

Kristin 28:17

No, I mean, I I think the worst things I've ever seen on a group ride that big is uh the worst really cringy is the car swarm. Yeah, and the car swarm happens when once again we have all these riders coming, the roads are not closed, right? So you have a car waiting at a light and the and the cyclists swarm it from both sides, yeah, which is totally unacceptable, right? That is totally that is totally illegal, it is totally unacceptable, it makes the driver angry and scared, versus going single file on the right. It's just there's so many of them.

Steve 29:00

Yeah, but or or stopping behind that car because when the light turns, you don't want to have to have the car repass you. They absolutely so just let the like the car all go and you're going. I'm gonna tell you, it is yeah, it's not, it's it's um, you know, you kind of have to you you defensively You know, when there's a few of you, a lot of times you'll ride up on the on the on the line, yeah, the side of a car to a light, right? Yes. But if there's 40 of you, you need to stop en masse behind the car, really.

Kristin 29:31

Yeah, and they also don't, I don't want to it it's such these are all these are all very good examples that we're talking about. It's not necessarily to criticize this ride, but like these are all very good examples of what happens in group rides too, right? Which is you are still required, and I know you all have gotten in trouble for this. It's two abreast, it's not five abreast, you know. I know we but sometimes a group can get a group in the early morning, is getting their speed on, and they're very excited, and then suddenly your your paceline is a blob. Yeah, and and then they get pulling.

Steve 30:09

So one of the one of the things you yell is car back, and this is group dependent. This is who you're with and what the how they treat that. Right. So when we were riding, car back meant it was single file paceline.

Kristin 30:25

Yes.

Steve 30:25

Uh, if it was in a casual area where we weren't really kind of doing that, and the road was wide enough and empty enough to like sort of two abreast would work. But basically, you are facilitating that car's pass. You don't want them hanging out behind you, you want them to get by you so you don't have to worry about them. Right. Right. And so that's what the car like, but I have been in plenty of these big group rides, these organized events, where you yell car back and everybody's like la la la la la. I'm gonna hang out here in the middle of the road.

Kristin 30:58

Okay, first of all, yeah, yes, absolutely. The first year I did the PMC with my friend Nancy, she would yell car back and no one would move. And she just started yelling, FYI, you're gonna die. She was like, I can't do this again. I need rules. Um, but you, it doesn't even have to be an organized ride. You have gotten in trouble for this. Early morning ride where y'all forgot there were rules to the road, and you got pulled over by the cops.

Steve 31:26

Oh no, that was not for not letting cars pass. That was for so the final road, the final stretch before we go, we we go from all out to back to chit-chatting casual to the coffee shop. That's sort of the sign sprint line, right? And that is the final, and a few people uh went over the center line is when we got that's when that's when we got in trouble.

Kristin 31:54

Yeah. Oh jockeying for position. Jockeying for position for a non-competitive.

Steve 31:59

Now we now that's now at that point we're doing the speed limit, so it we're not holding anybody up behind us, but yeah, but you can get real I mean the two group rides that we have done.

Kristin 32:12

I have there are two rides that we have done in my 20 plus years of riding, they're both races that have had people die in them. Yeah, is because they took a turn and went across the line and went across the line and ran into the front of a car that was just sitting there in both cases. I think the car was just sitting at the light. So I think that's the other the thing to be careful of definitely with some of these rides is that you know that group think takes over, right? That that, you know, more brainless intelligence.

Steve 32:47

We know we've given people horror stories about group rides. So fun. But horror some of this this discussion is sort of uh I think helpful in terms of what happens and what can go on and what to do and what not to do.

Kristin 32:59

Right. The let I think the message is you should, if you're going to do a road group ride, maybe thinking about, and you've never done one before, maybe think about finding a beginner group ride that'll go through like the all the etiquette and all the skills. You can practice pacelining that does some is something that takes some skill and some practice to get more and more comfortable. And you do have to be comfortable with the people you're riding with. And you do, you know, yeah.

Steve 33:31

Whenever a you know, a new person would join the group or or a couple new people, they you know, the that something shifted in the group there because they didn't quite have the predictability that everybody else knew from each other. Yeah, because it takes I mean it takes group rides are a a learning yes. It it's it's something you learn and you work up to in a way.

Kristin 34:01

Yeah, and you want to be really careful, like in that pace lining, right? You're not looking you you want to keep a close distance, you don't want to overlap the ti the wheels. Those are the things that take a little time to just learn your comfort with. And you may never be someone who's that comfortable being that close to somebody's tire, except for you, you know, like I will get super close to yours. I know your pace. Um I'm not gonna do it for a lot of people, right? You know, and that's fine, it's not ideal. Um for um yeah, I guess that's it on on road. Now mountain bike is both the same and different, right? So again, you have we have a group that rides on Friday nights. Yep, and I always get mixed messages out of them, which is everyone's welcome. Everybody knows where they are, and you're like, okay, you can't you one or the other guys like either everybody right, everyone's welcome.

Steve 35:03

Okay, but you better keep there's no there's no known course, there's no known pace. Right. There's uh there like yes. So if you don't keep up, you will get lost. You will get dropped and lost if you don't know where you are, have a map or whatever, all that kind of stuff.

Kristin 35:20

So this is where I'm gonna say once again, your first mountain bike group ride.

Steve 35:26

Should be sort of an organized event.

Kristin 35:28

Maybe do a semi-organized event. Yeah, through your local mountain bike group trip. What you're in for. Right. Right? Um, because once again, what are they gonna tell us?

Steve 35:40

More than not, a lot of organized mountain bike uh group rides will be no drop.

Kristin 35:47

Exactly. Well, that's what I was gonna say. So generally, when your local NEMBA group, your local uh NEMBA group or whatever. NEMBA group or or um your local shop does a organized group ride, they're gonna tell you once again how many miles they think they're gonna do. They're not gonna say the average pace. They might say how long they expect it to take, right? And I think it is important to recognize that the bigger the group, the longer a no-drop big group is gonna take way longer than you doing the same exact ride on your own.

Steve 36:26

I can't remember off the top of my head, but I had developed a formula for this. Oh, and it was it was basically, you know, what you could expect for your average pace. Yeah. And there was a formula based on the number of riders and then and then what it would change for each additional rider. Because the because when it comes down to the larger the group in mountain bikes, yeah, the slower your average pace will be.

Kristin 36:48

I think the trickiest bit about as one who's you regroup.

Steve 36:53

Yeah, well, exactly.

Kristin 36:54

As one who has who organizes mountain bike group rides, the trickiest bit is that's different than road riding is there's speed, which can equate to fitness, right? How fit you are as a rider, and then skills, right? How skilled you are as a rider. So you can have someone who's very skilled, but totally out of shape, right? You can have someone who is newer, doesn't have great skills, but super strong, and those can balance different ways. And it's and there was there have been attempts to say, you know, this kind of ride is a intermediate skill and advanced fitness, and you need to be able to ride two to three hours. And it like, I just find it's really hard. It's it's so much harder than on a road ride to say, like, we're doing fit, we're doing 25 miles at an average pace of 14 miles per hour. It is but like you know what I'm saying?

Steve 37:53

No, that varies around the country, it's it's super difficult here in New England. Um, we can do courses that you know you can ride quite fast, and then you could go places like we just rode today, which was uh 1400 feet of climbing and nine miles, and quite very, very rocky, actually. Yes, right, and that and you're just your average pace just plummets in that. Yes.

Kristin 38:17

Um yeah, yeah, and sometimes sometimes people just don't. I'm gonna say I hear far more horror stories of shitty group rides mountain bike related than road related, right? Like of people being like the I I went on the ride and I was having a hard time keeping up, and some dude told me I should get on the Peloton more, right? Like I've never had someone on a road ride say that.

Steve 38:44

Yeah, well, you get so you and you get the women's perspective a lot, and you were but again, I've never heard they have bad experiences, but I've never heard it on a road ride.

Kristin 38:54

Like I've never had if I don't keep up on a road ride, I just don't keep up. Nobody's like, you should probably work out more chicky, right? You know, so yeah, um that's the that's the that's and it can often be. This is where we're gonna talk a little bit about like things leaders can do to make them better, but these can be on organized rides, like it's the leader saying these things, and you just want to bop them, right? I I'm a little more forgiving on a again, an organic ride. You just showed up, you don't really know what the pace is, and you've been outpaced. Okay, there was nothing advertised. But if you if you go to a ride that says we are, you know, we welcome newcomers and we welcome it to, and then someone says something stupid to you like that, you're like, you can't you can't have both ways, guys. So yeah, so we've distance feet skills, how long the ride will take, no drop or drop, and as you said, most of the time.

Steve 39:53

Yeah, a mountain bike ride is by itself is gonna be a group ride, is going to be a smaller group than road, often. Yes, often, absolutely not necessarily, but often. Absolutely, and and I don't think like you're there's no hand signals though in mountain bike.

Kristin 40:06

So you do not have to Yes, you can keep your hands on those all you want. Now the still wanna be able to drink water.

Steve 40:14

Right. So um the except there are a few things to yell out for. Yes, low branch. Oh, okay. So if anything, if somebody's gonna hit could hit their head on something, you want to yell that out. And if people are running close to each other, it actually can be surprisingly easy to suddenly come up on that, and you just can't see it with the person's in front of you uh blocking it. So um, and I you often have your head, you know, you should have your head up, you have your head down a little bit more sometimes on mountain biking. Yeah, and um and then the other thing would be I'm gonna say hole. Oh, well, if there's some kind of thing.

Kristin 40:50

You don't have to point at it, but like there have been a couple where you're like you're Oh bridges.

Steve 40:53

I I'd yell up bridges. Oh, do you? Yeah. And the reason I do that is because they can have lips to get up onto the bridge, and wood can be slippery.

Kristin 41:03

So I just think you can or you can get your wheels stuck in the back of it like that.

Steve 41:10

I I just do it anyway. Okay, yeah, yeah. But the low branch is the biggest one.

Kristin 41:14

I mean, I think for the most part, most mountain bike rides, even if they don't say no drop, they intend to be no drop, but it's more of a like just just keep up. Like even F and R they'll have somebody people will yell, left, left turn, left turn, left turn, with the hope that everyone is close enough that they can hear you. They're they're not intentionally dropping you versus like a road ride, but certainly second ride or drop and a sweep on a mountain bike is the best way to make sure everybody stays together. Yep.

Steve 41:45

And I don't You want to explain real quick second ride or drop?

Kristin 41:48

Yeah, second ride or drop is when you have a leader and you have a sweep. So someone at the back who's gonna hurt personal, always be the back person, which for women's rides, I will say, you're gonna say to her, keep on going, and she's gonna say, Nope, that's my job. And so basically, when the um leader comes into a turn where she thinks no one's gonna see that she made the turn, she will ask the rider behind her to stop, make sure everybody gets through the turn, and then she will jump in right before the sweep the sweep. I will admit I do not understand the hesitancy of some groups to do second ride or drop. So when I ride with women, even if we're gonna go ahead and it works fantastic, yeah. But even when it's just an organic ride, organic ride, we're not, we just all gathered. We always say, Well, who wants to be the sweep? Oh, I'll be the sweep. Great. But when I say it at like FNR, I'm like, do you want to do second ride or drop? We don't need to do that. Why? What's the what's the hesitancy?

Steve 42:53

I don't know, but we have we just have our vibes and you don't just do it.

Kristin 42:57

It's like you just don't. I do and you're it and it's I'm gonna say it's always men. It's it the women always, and when I ran no number rides, organized number rides, those are the things that I've got to do.

Steve 43:09

Always second ride or drop.

Kristin 43:10

Again, the value of going to an organized ride. Where someone, the big difference between an organic ride and an organized ride is someone is taking a level of responsibility for the care and feeding of this group and making sure that it's successful. Yeah. Or they at least they should. And if they're not, if somehow they're being douchey, then they should not be leading rides. It's not an it's not an organic ride masked as an organized ride, right? Like I really do believe when you sign up to be a leader or sweep, that is a that is a big responsibility. And it's funny because I will have I will have riders who are like, I don't want to lead, but I'll totally sweep. And I'm like, the sweep is far bigger around. Responsibility, right? Because you are the one who's gonna see if they crashed. I'm up front as the leader going, whoop-whoop-boo, here I am. Just hope everybody's back there.

Steve 44:11

But you gotta fix the chains and fix the boo-boos.

Kristin 44:14

Fix the chains, you get you you think I'm kidding, but when we had a rider break her shoulder, it was Leslie, my sweep, who had to catch that, where I was just in the front going, gosh, I wonder where they are. Right. So the sweep has a huge level of responsibility that I think it's funny that so often my riders be like, no, I'll you you lead, I'll I'll sweep. Um, and they also have to step in. If the leader for some reason needs to bring somebody back, right, um they have to step in. So it's not, it's yeah, but I don't know why you guys fight it so much. That's weird. Because when we did, oh, I read, I led one of the rides, I think it was uh last year at the 50. Remember, I was leading. Um, we got back and there were a couple guys with us, and one of them goes, gosh, that was the best group ride I have ever done. And I was like, Because it was led by a mom. Well, well done. Thank you. Which which brings me to some of the things what leaders can do to make, in particular, a mountain bike ride friendlier. Right. So what do we think some of those things are that we just talked about?

Steve 45:32

The the what the leader can do to make ride friendlier? Yeah. Well, I suppose put out a yeah, just as free-for-all. How about that?

Kristin 45:50

Okay. So I'm gonna say um put out a put out a root if you can. And I get the organic rides. They're not going to, you know, or even maybe just have some that say, hey, if you lose us, here's here are a couple of rules.

Steve 46:04

Well, some of those rides might always just do the same route. That's true.

Kristin 46:08

Um I think a big thing that that maybe gets lost is you can split a group, right? There can be times where like, look, this group is not it's not big, not just big, it's like there's a clear division of speed or fitness or whatever. Right. And so assuming again you have someone who can lead, yeah, then splitting the group so that everyone is going at a pace can be really helpful. And don't be an asshole. That's that's all I'm saying. If you're if you're doing an organ I mean any, don't be an asshole. But in particular, if you are the one who said, Hey, let's do ride. Let me lead a lot. Ride. Like that's a responsibility, whether you like it or not. But you should do group rides. They're super fun.

Steve 47:00

They're they are super fun.

Kristin 47:02

They're super fun.

Steve 47:03

And I I and I and I will put a shout out together is better.

Kristin 47:08

It is, and I will put a shout out there to any of the women, like find a women's group and go for the ride. The number of women that we have in our women's groups before we started, who had never either never done a group ride, mountain bike group ride, had only done a group ride with their partner, right? Which is fine, but it's just a different vibe. Um, or had done a group ride and had cried because the leader was a jerk, or somebody else was a jerk. Um like find find your people because it really is awesome. Yeah. It really is. So anyway, anything else on group rides? No, I think we should go do some.

Steve 47:52

We should go do some. We have not we have been so uh laggy in signing up for organized events this year.

Kristin 48:02

We really have. What why why? Well, we are doing a cruise in the middle of the summer that is a little disruptive to our rhythm. Yeah, but yeah, we haven't really signed up for just haven't. No, we should look on by graduate. Yeah, anyway. All right, shall we?

Steve 48:23

We just do our local, our local group rides, our normal weekly stuff.

Kristin 48:26

Well, we should do that too. Okay. Hey, we got a voicemail. All right. So we're gonna play this one from Jeff.

Jeff 48:34

Jeff D here. I'm a first-time waxer following the Silka protocol with all the gear. Would love to hear Steve's take on waxing versus wet loops, immersion wax versus drip wax. Uh, I've had a fair bit of squeaking relatively early on in the wax cycle after maybe 20 miles. Not sure if that's something that's common or if I've done something wrong. But again, would love to hear the take of Steve the bike guy. Thank you.

Kristin 49:08

Like first-time waxer, longtime listener, first-time waxer. I was gonna say something so inappropriate. Okay. Do you wax your chain? Do we wax our chains?

Steve 49:21

So this is this is an interesting uh question and and take by Jeff, and I am actually an on and off waxer. Wax on wax. So wax on wax. Right. My experience here actually is not extensive to answer this um quite well, but let me just let me talk about it a little bit.

Kristin 49:44

Okay.

Steve 49:44

So I have tried the immersion wax a few times.

Kristin 49:48

Let me ask, I think I need some information. Sure. Okay, so waxing versus wet lubes. So he's saying waxing versus a lubricant, like we usually put on for drip out of a bottle, basically.

Steve 50:03

Yep.

Kristin 50:03

Okay, and then wax, immersion versus drip. So he's talking about dropping it into a container of liquid wax.

Steve 50:12

Of liquid hot wax. Sweet. Yeah. So usually you can do this in a crock pot. Now companies are making what is basically a specialized crock pot.

Kristin 50:20

Okay, versus the drip wax, which we have tried. Yes. We we do have some drip wax we've been using.

Steve 50:26

We do. Uh all right. Now go. Okay. And so I have done the immersion wax a few times. Oh, see it. You know, and it is uh you when you first do it, you have to completely strip the chain of its um packaged lubricants. Oh, that's right. So every chain comes out of its uh plastic bag, its packaging um coated in a lubricant, and that's actually mainly to keep rust off of it as it's in transit and so forth. But it does work perfectly fine to start off as a chain lubricant when you get going. Um but you have to strip that off with degreasers before you can then uh dump dunk it into the wax, the hot wax. And as Jeff said here, I've had some squeaking or as he as he mentioned, I have some squeaking relatively early. I have encountered the same thing. I just didn't feel like it was it was more work for not enough lifespan on that wax.

Kristin 51:24

I have a couple of more questions.

Steve 51:25

And so, and then the thing is now, so there are what I'm gonna call next generation drip waxes. So this is in a in a bottle, a squeeze bottle, like any old uh regular chain lube. Okay, and the ones in the past were not all that great, and I've been trying a bunch from multiple different brands as of recently to see if there's any that I particularly like.

Jeff 51:50

Okay.

Steve 51:51

Um, uh, the new uh ceramic speed one, that one actually is so there's so much wax dissolved into that. When you put that on, and they actually want you to do two applications on the top of the chain and two applications on the bottom of the chain, and it looks like it's been submerged and waxed. It is that coated and and white and waxy. So it you you're almost seems like you're almost getting the benefits of an immersion wax with an easier application of a drip-on. But I am been trying out so many of these.

Kristin 52:25

So you don't think he's doing anything wrong? You've had the same situation.

Steve 52:29

Yeah, so I've had the same situation. So again, it's I I want to keep trying. It could be what wax you're using, but I doubt it because quite frankly, he has the silka. Following the silka protocol, you know, when he has the silka uh melting system, he's probably using their wax.

Kristin 52:47

Um he also seems like someone who follows all the instructions. I probably reads ahead of time and follows the instructions to the letter. I have a question. Why?

Steve 52:59

Oh, why? Okay. So waxing has been shown to be the best lubricant for a chain in terms of reduced friction, which means reduced watt lossage. Oh. So if you think about when a chain has to go around the chain rings and through the pulley wheels and everything, each link is bending over each other, right? Around the pin. And so all of that is friction. And so that friction, you basically you are losing watts that you're putting into the pedals through that friction.

Kristin 53:34

Okay.

Steve 53:35

So a wax chain has been shown to have the the lowest um friction losses. Okay. At the same time, the way when you say a chain is stretched and it needs to get replaced, it is actually longer. You know, it has stretched, if you will, but the metal hasn't stretched. The pins in each roller have gouged out those holes to and elongated them, creating a longer chain overall.

Kristin 54:05

Okay.

Steve 54:06

So wax has also been shown to significantly increase the lifespan of a chain because it doesn't allow, it doesn't collect grit, and it's the grit and the fine dust particles that get in there and that what that grinds away the metal and makes those holes bigger.

Kristin 54:25

Is this special wax or is it like well it's you can use candles?

Steve 54:31

Normal paraffin wax, you can. Oh. People have done that. That's how it's scented. So ooh, vanilla scented. Somebody's behind me going, whoo, maybe this is a whole new uh product line for Yankee candle. Oh my god. Right? There could be something there for them.

Kristin 54:51

I love it.

Steve 54:52

But usually it's paraffin wax mixed with a couple other, you know, what they're gonna say, proprietary things to reduce friction. Lavender.

Kristin 55:01

Got it. All right. All right. So that's Jeff's question. I know there was one other thing you wanted to talk about, which was with SRAM SRAM Eagle.

Steve 55:12

This is a good update for all the mountain bikers out there. All right. So SRAM has their their current um systems are called T type or transmission. Yes. All right. So on the mechanical side, you have SRAM 70 and SRAM 90. Okay, basically same group sets. One's just a little lighter than the other. One uses more aluminum. Okay, right.

Kristin 55:36

Do the 70 and 90 actually mean anything, or are they just arbitrary numbers? Arbitrary numbers. Fantastic.

Steve 55:42

And then on the electronic side, you have uh GX, XO, and XX. Yes. Okay. So, and those are and then, but they're designated by T type. Okay, because all right, so in the past, these are replacing their old Eagle drivetrain systems. And anything that SRAM called Eagle generally meant one by 12. Yes. And um, and typically the 10 through 50 or 10 through 52, or in the lowest case of their cheapest cassette, 10 through or 11 through 50.

Kristin 56:20

Okay.

Steve 56:21

All right. So, but because all the bike makers are moving to T-type, they now realize they're making too many of these older eagle derailers. So they needed to simplify it. Okay. So that's there was um in the hierarchy of eagle derailers, all right, and and components, I should say, the whole group set. It was SX at the bottom, yes, then NX, yes, then GX, then X01, then XX1. Okay. Yep. So they are those are gone, basically. All right. Didn't we just do a we just did a post about how SX was bad. Yes. Okay. All right. So they are replacing NX and SX with what's called S100. Okay. Okay. So there'll be S100 derailers and S100 cranks and S100 shifters, that kind of thing. Okay. Uh the replacing now, this is the big one. They're replacing GX, X01, and XX1 with what's called S200. So if you have a high-end XX1 mechanical derailer and you break it, there is no, there will, well, and if there's old stock, sure, but there will be no replacement for that. You have to get an S200. All right. And it's gonna be just basically a GX level.

Kristin 57:44

Okay.

Steve 57:45

Um, and then for the Axis side, um, they're getting rid of GX, XO, and XX, and replacing that with what's called S500. So, which is essentially also just a GX Axis rear derailler.

Kristin 58:02

Okay.

Steve 58:03

Yeah.

Kristin 58:03

Are they still calling them Eagle?

Steve 58:05

No, they are not. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, they are.

Kristin 58:07

They are I like you. I'm gonna fly like an eagle on my moon bike.

Steve 58:12

It is still eagle. So so direct mount deraillers are called T-type, and the um standard mount that go to a derailler hanger are still called Eagle.

Kristin 58:21

Yeah. Oh, so transmission is direct direct mount, right?

Steve 58:28

You need a frame that has a uh a universal derailer hanger, UDH, and that hanger comes off the frame and the derailer goes in where that hanger was. Okay. And with old Eagle, those bolt into the standard derailler hanger, like they always did.

Kristin 58:43

Whoa, such a good name. And we even have the can up there with the cool Eagle logo. Anyway, all right. Well, thank you for that update on SRAM. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, we should wrap this up. Cycling Together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, a bike shop in Eastern Massachusetts, and Sundon Marketing.

Steve 59:04

If you like the show, please leave a review, review, or share with a friend for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic, suggestion, visit cycling together.bike.

Kristin 59:13

You can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at Steve the Bike Guy. I do like when the mechanics start arguing with each other.

Steve 59:23

Oh yes, we have started quite a few arguing quite an really enjoyable! Yeah.

Kristin 59:29

Enjoyable, especially today when after getting yelled at for two weeks about how uh electronic shifting was dumb. Useless and dumb and overrated. Today we posted a video about how cable replacing the cables could improve mechanical shifting, and somebody replied.

Steve 59:49

It's 2026, go to electronic shifting.

Kristin 59:52

You just can't win. Anyway, thanks for thanks for joining the ride.

Steve 59:56

All right, we'll see you next time.