About Bike Computers and Phone Apps

As both riders and bike shop owners, Kristin and Steve get a lot of questions about bike computers as well as bicycle tracking phone apps. We share our experiences using examples from the Garmin ecosystem, to discuss the features and drawbacks of each as well how to decide what will work for you and your priorities.

We also revisit the question – are e-mtbs ruinining mountain bikes – and share an announcement from the Shop.... Steve the Bike Guy is now an Intense dealer.

Transcript

Kristin: 0:05

This is Kristin.

Steve: 0:06

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a podcast about all things bikes, riding, and riding together.

Kristin: 0:13

This week, we're going to talk about bike computers. We get a lot of questions about bike computers. Um, and with the holidays coming, I think it's also a time where people start to think, well, maybe I'll buy a bike computer for someone.

Steve: 0:25

So it's really good timing. So sometimes it's not the thing you should be getting somebody, and other times it is uh or great. Yeah.

Kristin: 0:36

Exactly. But before we do all of that, I want to revisit revisit our ongoing conversation about e-mountain bikes and if they're ruining mountain biking.

Steve: 0:51

Have we said they're ruining mountain biking before?

Kristin: 0:54

There was an article about it. We talked about it on the show.

Steve: 0:56

Wow.

Kristin: 0:56

There's been articles about it. And then you and I have just regular conversations because that's what we do. We talk about bikes and e-mountain biking and mountain biking all the time. But I want to bring it up today because we just came home from a fabulous local event and it had a high percentage of e-mountain bikes. Yeah. And it had it because I mean, beyond obviously people like to ride them. It's an area that you were saying is known to have a bit of a enduro area.

Steve: 1:34

It does. It has a really cool enduro area. And so in itself shuttled. So if you want to just go out there and do all these big drops and hits and then go back up, it can be quite the day. So I can see there's a great application for an e-bike.

Kristin: 1:53

Yes, exactly. So today we started, it started in kind of a normal cross-country ride.

Steve: 1:59

You got In fact, we were doing the what the 11-mile cross-country loop.

Kristin: 2:03

Yeah, we were doing a cross-country loop. You had to turn back because you got a flat tire and had to deal with that. So I was all by myself. And at the bottom of what I learned was the Enduro Hill, I was suddenly in the minority of riders, right? Like I looked around and I was like, oh my goodness, they're everyone around me is riding an e-bike. And let me start by saying they were all great. They were all very polite. If, if anything, they were just kind of clogging the trail in their general enthusiasm to about to go up to do this thing. And then I tootled past them and I recognized there's this big hill, and I'm just slogging up it. And suddenly I am just surrounded by e-mountain bikers. Again, very polite.

Steve: 2:53

Going up the hill.

Kristin: 2:54

Going up the hill. And I'm thinking, oh my, do I have to do that? And then I notice to the right the blue arrow. The blue arrow is across the country. So I'm like, okay, here I go. And I want to talk about this because the moment I had was dawg, everybody's going that way, and I'm going that way. And I realized some of the it is e-mountain biking, ruining mountain biking. It's in it's in each rider to say, I have chosen this bike, I have chosen this style of riding, and I'm okay with my choices. And to kind of you have to realize there's gonna be FOMO moments where you're like, oh, where are they all going? What are they all doing? Right? It's not like the question is who's ruining e mountain who's ruining mountain biking? Is it e mountain bikers or is it we? The analog the internal struggle struggle. Yes, it's the thing you would say to your, I don't know, 10-year-old child when they're jealous about something. You would say, Don't be jealous, be yourself, be awesome.

Steve: 4:07

I realized that I think I had the opposite experience of you on that same hill. Okay, that was quite the climb.

Kristin: 4:15

Yeah.

Steve: 4:16

And so I was now back on my bike, uh, because I chasing me. In the morning, I was like, Do I need we started riding? I said, Do oh, do I need my pack, which had my flat fixed stuff in it? Nah, it'll be fine, right? I haven't gotten a flat in forever. Yeah, fame of lap courts. Uh, and then I slammed the wheel in this hole to the bottom of this huge rock roller. And never mind. So okay, but here's what happened for me on that climb.

Kristin: 4:41

Yeah.

Steve: 4:42

A bunch of a bunch of riders, probably eight to ten.

Kristin: 4:47

Yep.

Steve: 4:48

Had just started the climb as I come up on them, and and well, I guess some were in the climb. And I come along and none of them were on e-bikes. Okay. And I not that I'm aware of. And I come along. Oh, you would know. And I ride up this hill by them at a speed that would suggest I am on an e-bike, which I was not. Of course, my bike looks like an e-bike because of the internal shock. And I realized all of those people probably said, oh, look at that guy in an e-bike.

Kristin: 5:23

So for the record, I know they were in e-bikes because I could hear it.

Steve: 5:26

Yeah.

Kristin: 5:26

And I had just stood with them. So the ones passing me. And let me also be clear, I didn't want to go that way. I didn't want to do the Enduro. I ended up, I was having a very happy little solo time by myself. I then came upon my people, right? I came upon big groups. I even had a couple of climby things where I got up a thing that other people didn't, and and a guy would be like, nice job. Did you get up there? I'd be like, Yes, I did. Right. And that's that's the point I'm trying to make is like, you gotta own, you gotta own what you're riding. And I think whenever I hear about people saying that like e-mountain bikes are ruining mountain biking, I have to kind of go back to like, are they, or are we letting them get in our heads? Perhaps. Okay. That's all. That was my that was my moment of revelation. I got to the end. I had a great ride without you. I met I met some people. I got to the end. Some couple of people were asking me about my bike, and I was like, Yeah, I'm kind of going the opposite direction. I'm trying to get lighter, not like e-mount bike. I'm trying to stay analog as long as I can. And the 12 moment was like, you and me both, girl, high five. And I was like, Yeah, we're still there. Like we're still we're still fighting the good fight. But it was, yeah. But she even said, she was like, when you hit a when you do an awesome climb like that on your analog bike, like you're yeah, look at that thing you did. She was like, Nobody says that to you if you got up it on an e-bike. Yeah, like it's awesome when you sure of course you got up it, which is not entirely fair either, because if you're a skilled rider, there can still be stuff you gotta navigate just because it's an e-bike.

Steve: 7:15

This is Lincoln Woods and Rhode Island, and the course is was quite technical. So there was a lot of technical debt, technical down, there was a lot of technical up, there were some really uh climbs that require a lot of power, along with skill. But yeah, no, unfortunately, that doesn't matter. If you're on the e-bike, and I don't care if it was rock cheap, then you get no profits.

Kristin: 7:40

But it was a great event. But that's okay. And just a reminder of how much I we we ended up going um for work reasons, and we'll talk about that at the end. But I'm so glad we went, because it's an area I had not written before, kind of reminded me of around here because it had this like around the lake rocks and roots and it's our it's our kind of riding. A little technical, a little silly.

Steve: 8:06

Definitely gonna be riding.

Kristin: 8:07

Yes. Anyway. Um, all right. Well, shall we jump right into our conversation about computers? Okay. Yeah, I'm letting you lead the charge on this. In part because we tried to record this earlier and it went poorly.

Steve: 8:22

It did. Bike computers, they can it can get it can get complicated. So we have to sort of break this down to the to the more simple options.

Kristin: 8:34

I should say not simple options, but the simplicity of what you're looking at and the options available that you're and it can get real squishy when we're talking about apps or apps that attach to computers or apps that are on phones or like it can get really confusing.

Steve: 8:52

Yes. This is a really when I talk about do you need a bike computer? What is the benefit of having a dedicated bike computer versus using an app on your phone?

Kristin: 9:04

Yes.

Steve: 9:04

That you have on your handlebars. And some of this can matter what discipline of cycling you're doing.

Kristin: 9:11

Absolutely. Right. We're probably gonna default to the mountain bike.

Steve: 9:15

To the mountain bike and gravel. Yeah. But we're gonna touch on road.

Kristin: 9:18

Okay.

Steve: 9:19

Um, because I would think that in some cases, for some people, an app on a phone on a road bike is perfectly acceptable.

Kristin: 9:29

Right.

Steve: 9:30

Yeah.

Kristin: 9:30

So what is a bike? Let's start at the very beginning. Because what is a bike computer?

Steve: 9:36

Back in the day, right?

Kristin: 9:38

Back in the day.

Steve: 9:40

It was a tiny little L C D screen with a wire going down to your front wheel with a sensor to a magnet, and that would record every time the wheel wheel made one reservation.

Kristin: 9:51

Yep.

Steve: 9:52

Get this out. And and it would give you your speed and your distance and the time, and that was about it.

Kristin: 9:59

Right.

Steve: 10:00

Now those still exist. You can still get those, and most of those, even those simple ones, are now at least wireless. You don't have a wire running down to your front wheel.

Kristin: 10:08

Fair. Okay.

Steve: 10:10

But when we're talking about bike computers in certainly in this podcast, we're going to be talking about more of the full-featured GPS units, such as Garmin, Wahoo, Hammerhead, other little players like Brighton and uh and so forth.

Kristin: 10:26

So Right. Should we should we reveal our bias at the beginning of this conversation?

Steve: 10:32

Yeah, we should probably. We we are biased towards Garmin.

Kristin: 10:36

Well, personally, first of all, we're biased towards computers over phones.

Steve: 10:40

Computers over phones.

Kristin: 10:42

Yes. We we use computers, and then we are fully embedded into the Garmin ecosystem ecosystem. Yeah. Right? Whether it's because we've got computers, we've got watches, we've got lights.

Steve: 10:56

Light. The radars. Yeah. The blood pressure cuff. The scale.

Kristin: 11:02

The scale.

Steve: 11:03

Uh, and my bike trainer is owned by Garmin. Yeah. And power pedals.

Kristin: 11:09

Okay. So fully embedded. And that's what happens. It's kind of like Apple. You once you kind of start up down a path, you do you do end up being, okay. So that's our bias. So where would you like to start on this conversation?

Steve: 11:25

Let's start with the pricing, I guess, and the screen size issue.

Kristin: 11:30

Okay. Kind of why why people computer versus phone.

Steve: 11:34

Yeah, and those are two big reasons of why somebody might choose a phone app over a dedicated by computer. Certainly price, because they are not cheap.

Kristin: 11:45

And well, price meaning I already I already own my phone. So I don't have to buy anything extra. It's not that my phone was inexpensive, but right.

Steve: 11:55

Most people have the smartphone.

Kristin: 11:58

And the app may be free.

Steve: 11:59

Yeah, all you have to get is a mount for your bike. Yeah. And you're off and running using one of the popular apps like Strava or Riva GPS.

Kristin: 12:08

Right. And the and the screens are hella big.

Steve: 12:10

And the screens very big.

Kristin: 12:11

I mean, here's wait. Yeah.

Steve: 12:16

Sniphone for those and here's watching us. You can see the difference there.

Kristin: 12:20

Certainly, Armin and I have like one of the bigger screens. And yeah, it's there are days where I'll admit this is not that easy to see.

Steve: 12:32

Yeah, so and we'll go into the screen size in a minute. But so pricing to get a GPS computer, you're looking about at least from a popular brand, at least a minimum of $200, I believe is the cheapest Garmin. And that doesn't get you color maps or anything like that.

Kristin: 12:51

Or a touch screen. Does it get you a touch screen?

Steve: 12:53

It does not get you a touch screen. Okay. Right. And then and then of course they go all the way up to six, seven, eight hundred dollars. Yep. So they do get very pricey. I think we tend to keep them for when we get a new unit, we tend to keep it for probably about four years, I would say, to give you an idea of the product cycle and so forth. I usually skip generations.

Kristin: 13:15

Yeah, we definitely don't get it. I mean, that's in general. We don't get the new things every year, but I would say you're right. We wait until there's been something big, something because when those those pricier computers, some of it can be screen size, but a lot of it is more the other capabilities, the other things it can do, why it's called a computer and not a ride tracker. But it had some of them have a lot of capability. So yeah, we tend to wait a couple of years.

Steve: 13:45

So I just got a Garmin 850 this year, which just came out, and I was previously on the 830, which actually I want to say I probably have had for five years at least. Didn't you lose they do not Garmin does not come out with a new computer every year, it's not like a phone.

Kristin: 14:01

Okay.

Steve: 14:02

So their product cycle are is a few years before they'll come out with the next upgraded model.

Kristin: 14:08

Didn't one of your garments go missing?

Steve: 14:10

It did.

Kristin: 14:12

You lost a garment.

Steve: 14:13

I did, yeah.

Kristin: 14:13

You took my garment, which was the eight.

Steve: 14:17

It was the same one.

Kristin: 14:18

And then I got the Explore 2. Okay. Got it.

Steve: 14:24

So I guess the that's that's a re big reason why not to get a bike computer.

Kristin: 14:29

Because you could lose it.

Steve: 14:31

No, it's because of the price.

Kristin: 14:33

Oh, yes.

Steve: 14:33

Yeah. And then of course the other one is the screen size. And you said you oh sometimes you have trouble reading it. This is where I guess I don't I don't realize that people have issues seeing their screen.

Kristin: 14:48

I don't get cold, I don't get snot rockets, and I have perfect eye set. Oh that's my husband. Yeah.

Steve: 14:59

So so I guess this is something that I really had I do have to realize that is it is it because if you're wearing corrected glasses or or contacts for riding, then it doesn't let you see the distance of a computer.

Kristin: 15:15

My glasses now are progressives. Okay. So if I look down, I can look at my screen better. The other problem, I will say, is they're not great when it comes to contrast. So um little fun fact, the Americans with Disabilities Act requires a certain number of certain amount of contrast of colors when you do a website for it to be considered compatible, you know, compliant. I'm not convinced the garments fit that because there are times where you're like the background and the trail color are almost identical to each other. And on a foam you can fix that. Right. And a foam you can fix that. You can also zoom in like permanently.

Steve: 15:58

Now on the garment.

Kristin: 15:59

You can see a lot on your phone, where if you zoom in on a garmin, yes, but on a garmin, you can change the amount of information.

Steve: 16:06

So if you reduce the amount of map information, you'll be able to see better.

Kristin: 16:11

I could be wrong, and I will double check this, but I don't think you can change like the color of the maps. You can't do like dark mode, you can't do uh, I would like my trail to be hot pink on, you know, like so. If you have any kind of sight issues, I could see the Garmin. Now I want to say, and our friend Chris could probably tell us this better because he's on Watney. Why? On a Wahoo. I believe that one has more capability for him on an accessibility standpoint.

Steve: 16:41

So well, the only reason he chooses that that I'm aware of is because he can change the fields on his computer by using the app on the phone. And because he can have his phone huge, huge, yes, he's able to see that to change the data that's going to be showing up on his computer.

Kristin: 17:02

So I just think it's it, and it's not, it's not as friendly from the standpoint of like, oh, where am I, where am I going as a phone screen is, right? Like on a you know, scrolly around thing. You can be like, what the heck, you know, why is the key trying to drop a pin on me? You know, so it's not as friendly if you're used to the touch screen. If you think the touch screen on a computer is gonna be the same as your phone, you're gonna be diswanted. You know, the moving around.

Steve: 17:30

I have to agree, and this is something that has always bothered me, and I don't understand why, but why can't any of the bike computers get their touch screens as good as a phone? And I don't know it has to do with the attempt to make well, one, they're bike computers are waterproof. And the other is that they need to work both with your fingers and gloves on and different types of gloves, is that they try at least try to get that to work. And so maybe they're trying to get it to do too much and therefore it doesn't work as well as your phone. So the other thing about a phone is if you use a phone with the screen on all the time so you can navigate.

Kristin: 18:10

Yes.

Steve: 18:10

And the GPS is running, then it the battery life is not great on a phone. I agree. It might be plenty for people who do short rides.

Kristin: 18:19

Yes.

Steve: 18:20

But otherwise, it does not have the 12, 15, 20 hours that a Garmin has. Yep. And so that's uh another big reason to get a dedicated bike computer.

Kristin: 18:32

Yeah.

Steve: 18:33

It's just simply the battery life.

Kristin: 18:34

Yeah, and there are ways to compensate for that. I was out for a ride last weekend with a girlfriend, and she uses a phone, and we were talking about that, and she said she has a like one of these battery chargers packs in her top two bag. So the phone is always plugged into that. Plugged into that, always getting always getting juice. So you can and I think that's pretty common that people who because after about what a couple of hours, which might for most rides, your phone is gonna be fine. But if you're gonna do like the Pan Mask Challenge, you're gonna be out for four plus hours. You're gonna be out for any extended period, the battery cannot cannot keep up with that. You're gonna be out for a five-mile mountain bike ride, fine. Right, it can handle that fine.

Steve: 19:24

But with your say you say you're out on that mountain bike ride. Yes. With your phone, do you really want your phone sitting up there on top of your handlebars exposed to the elements, uh, if it starts raining, to fall today, to hitting rocks today, right? And the Garmin's can take a lick in and keep on ticking, and I assume the other the models too, and I have tried the hammerhead.

Kristin: 19:50

Okay. Uh you've also tried you've also tried breaking your garmin by falling. Didn't you just have an issue the other day where you were like, good thing I didn't have my phone on the top?

Steve: 20:00

Yeah, I ran into a 10-inch high stub of a tree that hadn't been cut flush to the ground on a relatively new trail. Yep. Went right over the bars, slammed the front of my handlebars into the ground where my garmin mount was. The gar like and so and I completely bent my garmin mount.

Kristin: 20:20

I was gonna say I saw the Garmin mount in the clamp the other day trying as you tried to like straighten it.

Steve: 20:26

I did fix it. Did you? Nicely done. The garments, we well, we use a tether on our garments, which goes around our handlebars and for this exact reason. So that yeah, you don't lose your you don't lose your garment if it comes off like that. Well, in those kind of situations.

Kristin: 20:42

I have definitely run not a scratch on my garment.

Steve: 20:44

It went straight into the ground and not a scratch on it.

Kristin: 20:47

See, I was not so lucky. So we put a we put these silicone sleeves on them, which I really like.

Steve: 20:52

Which I don't even have on mine yet.

Kristin: 20:53

But I was out for a ride earlier this year and I did scratch my screen, and there's nothing that bothers me more than scratch technology. Why don't I have a screen protector on that? But that it scratched on a rock. I I I bobbled on a rocky climbing thing and scratched it actually twice. So I would have been much like here, fine. Scratched. If it was my phone, oof, I'd be real upset.

Steve: 21:25

Yeah.

Kristin: 21:25

If it if it was just scratched. Exactly. Oh, absolutely. And not smashed.

Steve: 21:29

You can get screen protectors for garments like you can for phones too. Yep.

Kristin: 21:34

I actually knew that. Forgot. I know, and you haven't gotten your new garment does not have the silicone on it, and it freaks me out. I also like to put the silicone on it. I'm waiting for the orange because of the color. So mine is bright yellow, and I like that because everything we own is black, and I can find this in the pile of technology. Exactly.

Steve: 21:58

It's more the pile of the technology. Now, of course, if it were to somehow come off your handlebars in the woods, too, you also be, oh, there it is. Yes, right.

Kristin: 22:06

Yeah, but I do use this AFT technique.

Steve: 22:08

Actually, just so you can see it in the drawer of technology.

Kristin: 22:11

Yes, absolutely.

Steve: 22:13

The next thing to talk about about the computers is what you could connect to them.

Kristin: 22:17

Yeah.

Steve: 22:18

And so this is a big feature of bike computers versus a phone app.

Kristin: 22:23

Okay.

Steve: 22:23

Okay. And well, most bike computers now can connect all the things. And what I mean by that is you use separate heart rate monitors, uh, power, power meters, uh, no matter what kind of version of power you might have. Um, the front lights are sometimes connectable. The rear lights and radars that Garmin and other companies are now making.

Kristin: 22:50

This is how you end up sucked into the infrastructure of a certain those lights. Let's talk. I just want to talk about that that light that you got. It's called the what's it called?

Steve: 23:01

Which lights? The rear light. Oh, the the radar. The radar. Okay, the var the varia.

Kristin: 23:05

The variable, which is a light and radar. I will say, when you first bought it for me, I was not convinced that this was a piece of technology that I needed. It just felt like one more thing to attach. And I also was like, oh good, now I can I can see when I'm gonna get hit by a car. But I love it. I do really like having the Varia when I'm on the road because it just it it's a little it's a little dot that shows up on the right of the screen, and you see that there's a car and it detects way in the back. You see the number of cars relatively how fast they are how far apart they are from each other. And so it does let you kind of prepare. It you you might tuck in a little tighter, you might it it it does help. I was not convinced when you first got it for me.

Steve: 23:55

It's a game changer for anybody riding on the road, and I have never heard a customer say this otherwise. It is always while that is a game changer, I don't think I could ever ride again without it.

Kristin: 24:09

I did, was it summer before last? I was riding with some friends, and the VARIA sees way the heck back there. Right. So I'm leading. There's three riders behind me. I know none of them have the VARIA, and I see a car, and so I just say, like, car back. And my friend was like, wow, her hearing is so good. And I was like, oh no, sweetie, I have technology.

Steve: 24:35

Now, if a rider suddenly accelerates on you from behind, it will pick that up as a car briefly until they sort of match your pace, and then it'll disappear. Yeah. So there can be sort of those false positives, if you will, from other riders in a group.

Kristin: 24:49

You can share a varia. And you can share a variable. You can have one person have the varia and two, maybe more blue.

Steve: 24:57

Anyone with a Garmin, or or actually anybody with another computer can pick it up.

Kristin: 25:01

Right. So, which is great when there's three of us, our you know, our daughter's with us, so she can have the same signal. As long as we're all kind of semi-close together.

Steve: 25:10

As long as you're semi-close together. And now, of course, when the car is about to pass is going to be based on the person with the radar. Yes. So everybody needs to know that. Yeah. That's a little bit off in that regard.

Kristin: 25:21

I wouldn't do it to like 30 people, but you know, for you, me, and Sophie, it's a it's a nice option to make sure that everyone sees, or it's really Sophie. Like I have mine, you have yours. She doesn't have one yet. So it's a really nice option to add it to her screen. Yes. So, okay. What else think what other things can I connect? By the way, I use my watch's heart rate. I don't strap anything on.

Steve: 25:48

Yeah, so the the garment, presumably others can broadcast the heart rate so that your bike computer can pick that up and then show you your heart rate on your bike computer from your watch.

Kristin: 26:00

So later when you're looking at your route, you can see if your heart nearly exploded. Oh, wait. It's for training.

Steve: 26:05

They're not they're not quite as good as a chest strap. The watches.

Kristin: 26:08

Good enough for me. Was your heart beating? Yes.

Steve: 26:12

Great. Let's talk about the main phone apps. Yes. They cannot connect to any of that stuff. Is that right? Or they there's limited connectivities for maybe a heart rate monitor. Is that right?

Kristin: 26:27

Um, I think yeah, I did try to look into this. So I was looking at the things that say a computer does that um could you also do it on a watch? So for example, yeah, the the radar, the light that can't be connected to your to your um phone.

Steve: 26:46

If you can think power can be connected to your phone.

Kristin: 26:48

I think power can either. The big things that I was looking at was really about the tracking and the crash sensor. Oh, the tracking and the crash sensor. So those are like the two. I mean, we talk about the navigation, and obviously that's why a lot of of us are using it because I personally couldn't find my way out of a paper bag. But there are the other two pieces that I have become I have become dependent on, or that I like having.

Steve: 27:16

The Garmans have this basically a crash sensor, and it will detect whether you have abruptly come to a stop. Basically, yeah, it's using uh, I guess the G-forces that are encountered by the by the unit. And then it will set off a crash alert. And if you don't cancel that, it will automatically notify the person you have in your contacts that you set up ahead of time, right? And tell them that there's been an incident and your location.

Kristin: 27:48

The computer has to be connected to the phone to do that right because the computer doesn't have wife it has that capability. So you have to make sure that you've that when you start this kind of ties into the tracking. So when you start, when we start our ride, it sends out a signal that says Kristen has started her ride.

Steve: 28:08

Yes, and that's an option. And that's an option. So I know have to have that turned on.

Kristin: 28:12

Right, but that's how I know it's connected to my phone. Yes. And then the crash sensor. And the thing with the crash sensor is they tell you when you activate it on the Garmin for mountain biking, it'll say, You're gonna get a lot of false false positives on this one. And you do, right? You just if you stop really short, yes, it can, I did it today, it can set it off. But for me, that's when I really want it. Because the place I crash most is in the woods, right? The place that you have set it off the most where you've needed me has not been on the road. No, it has been in the woods, yes, right? Like you have when you set it up.

Steve: 28:54

That's never gone off for me on the road.

Kristin: 28:56

Yeah, I mean, it could if you had a crash or if you get hit by a car, whatever. Like, there's lots of reasons to use it there. But it's funny how Garmin is like, well, just so you know, you might not want to activate this because it's gonna have false positives. And I'm like, that's okay. Right. Uh, you know, I crashed twice today. I wasn't with you. Either one of them could have been catastrophic. They weren't. Right. Um, and what happens is it starts going whoop whoop like and you just try to get to it as quickly as possible to stop the signal. Yes.

Steve: 29:28

Because it also stops your if it sends the signal, does it stop on my 830? If if it had detected a crash and you say stopped it, it did also stop the tracking. You had to restart, you had to restart, say, um continuing on. So please keep recording.

Kristin: 29:49

Yep.

Steve: 29:50

On my new 850, it does not.

Kristin: 29:52

Okay.

Steve: 29:53

That I have seen.

Kristin: 29:54

So they fixed that. Yes. That makes sense. I mean, I get it in theory that like if you've crashed, your ride is probably over, but if it's a false positive, then you've ended somebody's ride, and that's annoying. So I did look this up. If you use the Strava app on your phone, you get the beacon. So that can be used for tracking.

Steve: 30:14

And so somebody can track your. This is really great for an event. So if you're doing a big, say, fundraising ride and you're riding 100 miles, then people at home can see, oh, where is he? You know, and they maybe they're coming out to cheer you, where are they, and so forth.

Kristin: 30:29

Or you're just wondering when someone's gonna get home. Or when they're gonna get home. They said they were gonna do a 10-mile ride and they're 15 miles into it. These can also be good if you're both at a ride, you're just in different places. Like when we were doing the Sherburn 50K, I could see where you were and how far behind I was that group to see how, like, oh, how am I doing compared to Steve? So that I knew, did I want to cut off more miles or less less miles? So there's a lot of reasons for the tracking, and it can be really helpful. Ride with GPS also has on their app something called live logging. So, again, same capability. So that's the app, but the crash sensor that's computer only. There's the Strava app is not going to sense a crash. Ride with GPS isn't gonna sense a crash. There is Apple phones and watches may sense that you've crashed kind of separately. You've just crashed.

Steve: 31:31

Right.

Kristin: 31:32

So I don't know enough about that technology. So that's where really the computer shines.

Steve: 31:38

Yes, on those for the that safety application.

Kristin: 31:40

Yeah, yeah, on those really dedicated things that like you want a computer to be doing. Can we talk briefly about getting routes onto these devices? Because I feel like if there's a complaint I get from people who have them, it's I just don't I I can't get the root on there. I don't know how to get the route on there. Okay.

Steve: 32:03

I mean, one of the greatest things about the bike computers is the navigation.

Kristin: 32:08

Yeah. That is that's that's why I have it.

Steve: 32:12

That is yeah, that is the number one reason of why we have the computers because and they do so well with putting a route into the computer and then following it. And it it will it will give you turn by turn directions, it will tell you if you're off course.

Kristin: 32:29

Some of the newer ones say it, don't they? Doesn't yours like yours can say it, like turn right, turn left, like just instead of just a beep beep beep, like uh I believe some of them now use it.

Steve: 32:41

Yeah, yes, I think you're right. Though if I had mine can do that, I haven't yet discovered that. So it will beep right now.

Kristin: 32:48

I know that someone I ran into on the hallowed road was like, this is so great, and I just got this new computer, I don't know what he was on. He goes, and it tells me turn left, which is really helpful. Now there can be times when you're in the woods where it'll be like, you're off course, and you're like, I'm really not. Like I'm I'm right here. And I think it's just the trees and the satellites, or sometimes you're like, the course is right there. Like, so I know I'm on the course, so there can be times where people are like, I'm so confused. I'm like, no, it's you're fine. Like you're fine, just keep riding. It will go course found. It's very exciting, right? Okay, now how do I get them on the device?

Steve: 33:27

So 20 years ago when I got my first Garmin, that was extremely difficult. You were plugging into a computer, you were using a special Garmin program, and logging in with your AOL account. It was frustrating, actually, because it it did not work very well. Of course, that was 20 years ago. Now today, because you can still buy you can still easily buy the 840, say, and and at a really good price because it's the outgoing model. Okay, maybe you can still buy the old 830, but I doubt it. And then of course the new the new 50 series. So the new the new series, like my 850 and the 550 and the 1050, as long as you just star or pin a a route in whatever app you have set up synced with your Garmin's. So for me, in the in the Garmin app, I have Trailforks, Strava, Ridewood GPS.

Kristin: 34:29

I was gonna say, let's take a step back. So you when you get your computer, you also have an app for your phone, right? There's the Garmin app.

Steve: 34:35

The Garmin Connect app.

Kristin: 34:36

Right.

Steve: 34:36

Yes.

Kristin: 34:37

And you can connect that app to other services. Yes. You so you can log into your Ride with GPS account, you can log into your Strava account, you can log into TrailsPorts.

Steve: 34:49

Your computer is essentially crosstalking with those third-party services. Right. So if I go into Ridewood GPS and I pin a route, as soon as my Garmin syncs with my phone, there's their route.

Kristin: 35:05

It's magic.

Steve: 35:05

Yes.

Kristin: 35:06

It's the biggest upgrade to getting I I'm gonna tell you, the biggest upgrade to these devices is when that magic started happening.

Steve: 35:16

Right. Like on my age 30, I actually had to, there was a thing called uh connect IQ. And so it was a it was this sort of internal second program in the computer, which you would go into there and then you would say, Oh, go connect to my Riotwood GPS. It was actually fairly seamless, just a few more steps.

Kristin: 35:37

Yes.

Steve: 35:37

This is way simpler and easier. And I just tested it the other day with Trailforks and with Strava. They were slower to get my routes to me than Riwood GPS, but it did work with no problem.

Kristin: 35:52

So I think maybe that's the missing piece when people are having trouble, they're not realizing that you have to sync it, you have to connect these other accounts. Yeah, the other services. And the other way it goes is when you save, you can then say, by the way, after I'm done with my ride, go ahead and send my ride to Strava. Strava or wherever. Yes.

Steve: 36:16

So, you know, and and yeah, and I can see it and ride with GPS and yes.

Kristin: 36:20

Right. Yep. Yep. And sometimes they even get a thing from Trailforks that says, Would you like to rate the ride that you just did? So it's it can poop, boop, boop, boop, boop. All it's two-way communication.

Steve: 36:30

I believe with Trail Forks that you need the premium outside account to use it. So I was testing it, which mine has expired. Uh so I had a whole bunch of routes in Trail Forks that I had done while I was a member.

Kristin: 36:45

Yes.

Steve: 36:46

And there they were, and I could say, Oh, send to my Garmin, and and it did.

Kristin: 36:50

Okay.

Steve: 36:51

But if I looked on any other new routes that were not in my predetermined list that I'd already saved, it would there was no option to send it to a Garmin. So I believe that they have taken they well, yeah. They that that option is not available unless you're a premium member.

Kristin: 37:07

They're all kind of not, they're they're all if for those who have like read the news or seen, they're all kind of uncomfortably working together, right? The Garmin's and the Strava. I mean, didn't the Strava just sue Garmin?

Steve: 37:21

Yes, and then dropped it.

Kristin: 37:22

And then dropped it. But it's like they're all I don't think anyone wants to be working together, but they recognize they have to work together, and that's a good thing if they could figure that out. But it is nice to have it be so uh integrated now in a way that you're right, it it never was before.

Steve: 37:44

So yeah, so getting courses onto your Garmin now is really quite easy.

Kristin: 37:50

You do have to read the instructions though, but you yeah, it is a which I fail to do process. Sometimes I just like I open the technology and I just start hitting the buttons, and then I go, gee, I don't know why I don't know how to do this.

Steve: 38:02

Like that's what you're supposed to do with all technology. Manual no, let me just play with it, let me play with a lot of people. All right, so all this comes down, I guess, if you're going to be gifting a bike computer, all of these features are where it can be difficult to give the right one to a person.

Kristin: 38:23

Give a gift card.

Steve: 38:25

Right. Because you don't want to get a bike computer for somebody as a surprise gift if you don't know what uh features they want, and what accessories they might want to connect to it.

Kristin: 38:39

So, do you want to talk about features? So, like maybe let's talk about Garmin.

Steve: 38:45

So, Garmin makes their cheapest modeling is $199. Yes. And it does all the GPS tracking and recording and can connect to the radar and so forth. It it is black and white, it is non-touch screen, it does not have a color map or a map at all. You if you're going to be following a course that you created, you're basically following a breadcrumb trail, as they call it. So you can see if you're off course. Oh. And and you can look down at your screen and say, Oh, my breadcrumb, oh, I'm coming up to an intersection. Oh, look, the little trail is going to the right. Okay. I obviously am turning right.

Kristin: 39:24

Got it.

Steve: 39:25

And then you move up to what you have, the $299 Explore, Explore 2, actually. Yes. Second version of this. Now, this one has this is the biggest jump in computer technology to me, in terms of the price point because you get so much more. You get a bigger screen, you get touch screen, you get color maps, you get color, you know, all that navigation uh capabilities.

Kristin: 39:50

Can we can we not underestimate the importance of a touch screen? It is a touch screen world, my friend. And when you have had the ones with the buttons, I hate every time I've had to use. One of yours that had buttons. Yeah. Because you just you just find yourself touching the screen. True. I just think that's how we're wired now.

Steve: 40:08

So yours has a limitation where it doesn't have training features, which means you can't race to race yourself in a in your sort of your ghost self that you did on a course previously, and you can't say set up interval training. It only has three profiles. And they're locked. And they're locked. You can change the data that you see in each three, but you only have this road, off-road, indoor. Right. And so if you have a lot of different types of bikes, then the Explorer 2 might not be for you. But if those two options really are good for you, then it's going to be perfectly.

Kristin: 40:51

Let me just share my experience as the user of this computer. I do wish that it had more profiles because I don't do road, but I do multiple types of off-road. That's my only little complaint. And that really just comes down to how it gets imported into Strava. It'll say, like, you did a morning gravel ride. I'm like, no, I did a morning mountain bike ride, but I'm going to edit it anyway. I'm going to give it a name and I'm going to add some pictures. The biggest improvement over this one, because I had both. I had the Explore One. Sophie's Sophie has it now. Is it was very bad at one of the greatest things about Garmin or any of these computers, right? Is you'll say, I think I'm done. I I want to go back to the start. And this one does a good job of bringing me back to the start on trails where the Explorer One didn't know how to do that. And so it just kept trying to put you on roads, which if you're in the middle of the woods, is annoying. So but I have found that there's not a thing more that I need than that one. Than this one, right? But I also don't, I don't use power pedals. I don't use I don't use it for training. I'm training for lights.

Steve: 42:05

But it works with the radar and it does work with heart rate monitors and it does work with the power pedals and stuff.

Kristin: 42:11

So no, this has been I have never I have.

Steve: 42:14

That unit is one of my my highly recommended ones for a lot of people because it does have almost everything that most people want.

Kristin: 42:22

Yeah. Yeah. The other stuff I wouldn't even think of. Yeah. Okay. And you said how much was this?

Steve: 42:26

$299.

Kristin: 42:27

$299.

Steve: 42:27

All right. And then you move on. So then Garmin has what are called the 500 series and the 800 series.

Kristin: 42:32

Okay.

Steve: 42:33

They can essentially have the same features. The 500 series has not does not have a touch screen.

Kristin: 42:39

Okay.

Steve: 42:40

And you have to use buttons along the sides, and the 800 series has a touch screen. Okay. If you ride off-road at all, get a touch screen one. That's my personal recommendation because you cannot pan the map on the non-touch screens.

Kristin: 42:56

Oh. Okay.

Steve: 42:57

And that is a that's important. And it can be frustrating if you do a lot of navigating in the woods and you need to look up ahead to see where things are going and so forth. Being able to pan the map is a feature that comes in. It comes in really handy.

Kristin: 43:16

I mean, I've heard people complain their gloves don't, you know, do well with the touch screen, but I have not had any problems with it.

Steve: 43:25

The 850 is nice, is that they've added a little bit more buttons than they used to have. So there is a the capability to use some more side buttons for things. Yeah. Okay. And then they have their flagship, which is the thousand series. So right now we are at the 550, the 850, and the 1050. And they've had the 850. And I have the 850.

Kristin: 43:48

Okay. And how much does that cost?

Steve: 43:50

So the Garmin 850, which did just come out a couple months ago, unfortunately has had a major price bump, like everything else in the world. And it is now at full price $600.

Kristin: 44:03

So what's the big difference between the $850, what you have, and what I have?

Steve: 44:09

So I can have essentially as many pro bike profiles as I want.

Kristin: 44:14

Okay.

Steve: 44:14

And I can set them all up to be unique. Again, you can with your couple in there, you can set up the data fields that you see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing about all of these computers is that you customize what kind of data you want to see for each bike profile. So maybe on your gravel, but you know, on your mountain bike, you want you have power pedals or a power meter, so you want to see all that power data, but your road bike you don't. So you don't want those data fields on the screen.

Kristin: 44:43

The light on your on your road bike. I will say, I think the indoor riding one turns off GPS.

Steve: 44:51

It turns off GPS.

Kristin: 44:52

So unfortunately, I really only have two profiles, which is again fine for me. I heard your new one comes.

Steve: 45:01

The new Garmin's, yes, they have a built-in bike bell, which does work really quite well. Uh it's a it's a nice little feature.

Kristin: 45:10

How do you get to it? Is it like right so on it?

Steve: 45:14

You can set up a couple of things for that. You can actually set up one of the buttons to be the bike bell. You can set up if you have electronic shifters that you're connected to your Garmin, you can actually set up one of the auxiliary buttons to be the bike bell.

Kristin: 45:29

Yep.

Steve: 45:30

Or you all you have to do is you quickly touch the tap the screen and it brings up these three options at the bottom, and one of them is the bike bell. So it's basically sort of a two-time a two-tap bike bell. It's a two-tap bike bell.

Kristin: 45:44

Can we talk about which is great for the bike paths? Um the pricing on these, specifically map pricing. What is what is map pricing?

Steve: 45:54

Oh, the minimum advertised price. So Garmin's are sort of like Apple, where they are price protected, meaning that if you go online to look up a certain Garmin computer you might be interested in, what you're gonna see is the exact same price everywhere. Okay. Because companies, their dealers are not allowed to advertise it for a lower price than that. Okay. Now you could go into a bike shop and they might be selling it for less expense, because you can sell it for what you want, but you cannot advertise it online or in a flyer or whatever if below their minimum advertised price. And occasionally I'll get emails from Garmin saying these products we're having a map sale on, you were allowed to advertise it at this lower cost, you know, which is not unlike a lot of technology. And this is this is one of the big things about Garmin and a lot of technologies. So many people just go online, oh, I can get this so much cheaper online. But in reality, you you can it's it's helpful to perhaps go to your favorite store and get it because you're not going to find it online cheaper.

Kristin: 47:11

And your private store could have sale prices, they just can't advertise them. Right. They can't advertise that.

Steve: 47:17

But if somebody walks in, you can say I can advertise it in the store. Okay. Yeah.

Kristin: 47:22

Okay. So I mean, there is something, shop local, buy where you ride, people.

Steve: 47:27

And the one more thing, I guess, to say about Garmin is just so everybody knows, there's not a lot in it for sh for retailers in terms of computer. You don't make a lot of money on. Yes. Got it. Yep. Yep.

Kristin: 47:46

Okay.

Steve: 47:46

And that's part of the reason why they they do that.

Kristin: 47:50

Oh, so there's at least something. Yeah. There's some reason for you to carry them. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the with our audience about computers?

Steve: 48:00

No, we can certainly uh, you know, if you have a question or comment, please.

Kristin: 48:05

Yeah. If you have questions, if you have, I'd love to hear also what people who've chosen the other computers, what they, you know, why they made that choice. As I said, I think we ended up in Garmin because you started so long ago.

Steve: 48:19

Yeah, I mean, it was essentially the first real GPS computer. Right. I started so long ago and then just kept on going from there. And then, of course, started buying more Garmin equipment.

Kristin: 48:29

And we had Garmin's in our car, remember? We have Garmin's everywhere.

Steve: 48:34

Right. Wahoo was very popular. Yep. Um, Hammerhead, so the Hammerhead Karoo, that was really bursting onto the scene. And it has and had very good reviews, and so it was it was really coming along. Then Sram bought them. And it it should have jumpstarted its momentum even more, but it seemed to have killed its momentum. And one of the things was that when SRAM bought them, Shimano said, No support for you. And so they took away the their electronic shifting support. So on my on I had a road bike with DI2, and there's buttons on the top of the shifters, and I had those control my garments. So I could push a button and it would swipe to the next page. Push the button, swipe to the next page. Oh, I used to have that. Oh, I want to go to the map. I double-click a button. Yeah. On my while, so I have my hands exactly where they are, and it would go right to the map on the computer. Right. And you could also see your battery levels, what gear you're in. Well, Shimano took all that away from Hammerhead.

Kristin: 49:43

Because their competitor Slam bought it.

Steve: 49:47

Oh. And it almost seems like that killed the momentum. Apparently, there's a third-party app you can get to bring some of that functionality back.

Kristin: 49:56

But can we all just get along? Can I just say there could be a lesson learned from the sewing machine industry in for the bike industry? So you and I, I just bought a what 1905 Singer sewing machine antique. It uses the exact same needles as my current Singer, which by the way, are universal. I can use the same needle on every sewing machine. A brother, uh, well, that's the only name I know.

Steve: 50:27

That's really impressive.

Kristin: 50:29

That is this is what I'm saying. And why like, I don't know, there's a lesson to be learned there, right? Because you can go into any sewing mach sewing shop, pick up any packet of universal needles, and know it's gonna work on a machine that was made in 1905 or 2026.

Steve: 50:49

So there's a situation of it if it's ain't if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I mean, granted, I don't know what you can do with needles. Yeah, but in the bike world, is if it ain't broke, let's re-engineer it.

Kristin: 51:01

We're gonna Yeah. I mean, I just think of all the different batteries we're using and all the different ways things get connected to something and all the, you know, I just yeah. Can't we all just get along? Anyway, all right. Well, why don't we take a break? I think that's all we've got on bike computers, and then we'll be back with a couple of news items from the shop.

Steve: 51:22

All right.

Kristin: 51:28

All right, we're back. Hey! One of the reasons we were down in Rhode Island today was so that you could do what?

Steve: 51:36

Meet the intense dealer who was handing me a bike demo so I could bring back to the shop.

Kristin: 51:43

He was remarkably chill.

Steve: 51:45

Yes, and he had just come, he had just come back from a ride on it, and I'm funny.

Kristin: 51:51

And made the intense guy was chill. Okay. It was funny. Anyway, so why are we bringing home an intense? Why did we bring home an intense bike for demoing?

Steve: 52:07

So we picked up uh an intense primer today, and that is because I, Steve the Bike Guy, is becoming an intense dealer. And Intense is doing a whole new program going forward uh for their bikes, which is really just the frame. So you buy the frame and then you work with a shop to select the parts package which you want. And so, and then the shops are working with the parts distributor, the biggest parts distributor in the country, to get the parts packages that you're gonna put on the bike. Okay, and so this allows for more customization. You know, you get the tires you want, and you get the saddle you want, and you get the gearing you want, and all that type of stuff. So all at the same price as of a normal bike.

Kristin: 52:56

It's the Steve the Bike Eye Way, it is the Steve the Bike Guy Way, yes. That's amazing. Tell me about Intense.

Steve: 53:02

They are actually a legacy brand, I guess if you want to call it that. Well, like I got that impression. They have been around for 30 plus years. Okay, they are definitely big in the downhill because they do have a team, a downhill team.

Kristin: 53:18

Oh, okay.

Steve: 53:19

Right? So you see them a little less in the cross-country scene, which we are more a little bit more involved with. So we got the Intense Primer, uh, which is a beautiful blue color, and that's a 150 millimeter travel bike.

Kristin: 53:32

Okay.

Steve: 53:32

So that's going to be available for demo at the shop now. Yep. And then the spider, hopefully, very soon. And that comes in that's a brand new bike coming for 2026 that comes in three different colorways, and I'm very excited to get on that one too. Yeah. So, yeah, so they've been around Bay Round forever, but it's tough times in the industry.

Kristin: 53:55

And it is tough times in the industry.

Steve: 53:57

Trying to find a different path.

Kristin: 53:59

We're very careful about the brands that we bring in. It sounds like this fits very much with how you like to work with customers and how you like to build bikes. You're not really a one-size-fits-all kind of shop. Exactly. As you said, I mean, it's tough times. We actually just saw two uh big brands start to talk about shutting down.

Steve: 54:25

It's gonna be a rough 2026.

Kristin: 54:27

Yeah. Let's talk about those two brands that are shutting down. One is Gore. That's how clothing company. Now, Gore makes Gore-Tex.

Steve: 54:39

So, yes, Gore makes Gore-Tex. Yes.

Kristin: 54:41

Or Gore-Tex makes Gore.

Steve: 54:43

I believe it's the WL Gore and company.

Kristin: 54:46

Okay.

Steve: 54:46

So they've been around a long time.

Kristin: 54:48

Gore-Tex is not going away.

Steve: 54:49

Gore-Tex, you'll still be able to get your shoes and your boots, your whatever, but they're Goreware, their cycling clothing division. And it's been around for a long time, and that is being shut down.

Kristin: 55:00

It's a bummer because I don't have a lot of brands that I know clothing-wise or that I own that aren't Steve the Bike guy. Gore's kind of a big one. Like I have a lot of our winter gear.

Steve: 55:14

They're very much known for their winter gear, yes.

Kristin: 55:16

Vortex. Um, that's a bummer.

Steve: 55:19

Yeah, and I mean, but if you have favorite gore pieces, I mean, I just looked. There were over 600 different items at the distributor, and get them on. Yeah, probably a minimum of 25% off.

Kristin: 55:33

And then Rad Power apparently just made an announcement that their people should be prepared for the worst. That's how I read it. So Rad Power is an e-bike, more cargo bikes, right? Like more Yeah, they do the two cargo bikes, but well, we do know our friend has one. Right. So, and it's cool, it's a cool little bike. Here's the question I had on this. If you bought a bike recently from a brand that is going away, what sh what do you do?

Steve: 56:10

The biggest thing to think about is are there certain parts on your bike that you may need replacements for that are so proprietary?

Kristin: 56:20

Okay.

Steve: 56:20

And if that's the case, and so if you have an opportunity where the brand might be shutting down, see if you can get a few of those parts.

Kristin: 56:29

Okay.

Steve: 56:30

You know, but a lot of cases these brands just sort of shut down. You didn't realize it it was gonna happen.

Kristin: 56:35

Yeah, like I mean, I presume your bike shop might also have those parts for a little while if you bought it for a while.

Steve: 56:40

Well, no, so that power is direct to consumer, so they're not gonna have that. They only sell these parts on their website. Got it. With a full suspension mountain bike, it a lot of times are pivot bolts. Okay. And that can be, and in some cases, uh derailer hangers. Usually wheels manufacturing makes a replacement, but they don't make 100% of all hangers that have ever existed. So that might be something to think about looking into and getting.

Kristin: 57:11

And then other parts on your bike might be covered by other warranties. Like if you have a rock shocks, yeah, that's all covered by separate warranties. Don't worry about that.

Steve: 57:19

An e-battery from No, so like rad power is all gonna be who knows who makes their motors and who knows who makes their batteries. There's no recourse on that. If something goes wrong with that, you're you're done.

Kristin: 57:33

Well, moment of silence for gore and fingers crossed for rad power. We are before our next episode, we are going to be at the Turkey Afterburner. That is our last event of 2025.

Steve: 57:52

We can come up with another one somewhere.

Kristin: 57:54

It's the last organized event that I am responsible for setting anything up at. Right. But if you're in the area and you can get out to Turkey Afterburner, highly recommend. It's a great event. Hail Education has great trails, and Southeast Nemba does a really nice job with this event.

Steve: 58:14

They do, and they cut a lot of wood, and the pyros chuck that wood on that fire to it's just an infirmity.

Kristin: 58:21

I heard there's gonna be a stage for the bandza.

Steve: 58:25

Band with a multiple.

Kristin: 58:27

Yes, bands multiple. So there's gonna be live music.

Steve: 58:30

There's fingers crossed for good weather because this time of year It's tricky. It could be snowing for all we know. It could be snowing.

Kristin: 58:37

So that's the Saturday after Thanksgiving. But yeah, highlight of the season. So I'm looking forward to that. And then I can't believe it. 2025 is coming to an end. Just like this episode. Oh, look at that transition! All right, cycling together with Kristin and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in eastern Massachusetts and Sundon Marketing.

Steve: 59:03

If you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic suggestion, please visit cycling together.bike.

Kristin: 59:11

You can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. I'll find some others at Steve the Bike Guy. Alright, thanks for joining the ride. Bye. See you next time.