About PMC Unpaved

For the fourth year, Steve and Kristin joined riders and volunteers at PMC Unpaved, the Pan-Mass Challenge's annual gravel fundraiser which benefits Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Lenox, Massachusetts. In addition to reflecting on another amazing experience, we share our experiences, advice, tips and insights as well as thoughts for next year.

During this episode we also discuss the proposed tariffs on the aluminum and steel content of bicycles, and answer listener comments and questions (including how did Steve turn a Raleigh Technium into an ebike).

Transcript

Kristin: 0:04

This is Kristin.

Steve: 0:06

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a podcast about all things bikes, riding, and riding together.

Kristin: 0:12

I'm not sure that I am emotionally prepared for the fact that I don't have a dog who's going to try to break into our recording studio.

Steve: 0:20

Every time she would try to get in here because she needed to be near us.

Kristin: 0:24

Yes. So we're a week late. Again, we're the probably the only ones other than maybe Jeff who are paying attention to our schedule. Because last week we had to say goodbye to our dear Miss Daisy, our our furry partner in crime. So I'm wearing my sweater in honor of her because it's her colors, black and white. There we go. Oh yeah. One of our one of our friends texted me and said, Your sweaters are like the perfect homage to Daisy. And I said, Yeah, I wrote in the Steve the Bike Guy update that she wore.

Steve: 1:01

Create a Daisy patch.

Kristin: 1:02

I said she wore the black and white before we did, before we added it to the to the kit. Anyway, this week we are talking about PMC Unpaved, which is the event we did now.

Steve: 1:16

Which is the PMC's gravel edition. Right.

Kristin: 1:19

But we will get into all about PMC and you do like to take it to the next that we're gonna talk about. Yes, that is all true. We did that two weeks ago. But first, let's hit a couple of news items. Okay. We haven't talked about this one for a while.

Steve: 1:38

Tariffs, yeah.

Kristin: 1:39

Tariffs. Dun dun dun. What would you like to say about tariffs? What's going on?

Steve: 1:45

Well, you have here a the latest sort of tariff news, and I guess this is the one that's really has the industry sort of a call to arms on protesting this.

Kristin: 1:59

Well, it's the one that also impacts bike shops like ours directly. Directly. I mean, there are tariffs all over the right.

Steve: 2:07

Every bike company and every shop will be impacted by this next tariff. Right, and it's coming up.

Kristin: 2:13

What is this next tariff that's coming up?

Steve: 2:16

So this is all bicycles and frames coming into the US from any country would have another 50% tariff on the steel and aluminum content on top of whatever tariff is already in place as well.

Kristin: 2:33

My gosh, it's like we just did a show with the tariffs are already frames are made of.

Steve: 2:37

Yeah, and the tariffs are already layered. So there are already so many different tariffs from a single country. Right. And now here's another one. And of course, it's the steel and aluminum content. How do you even figure that out? Uh, I don't understand how customs is gonna figure that out.

Kristin: 2:58

Um They're just not they're either they're gonna figure it out or they're just not, manufacturers are just not going to import bicycles because it's too hard. One of the things I read about it, they did also say that e-bikes with motors greater than 250 watts would face a 50% tariff also on the value of the aluminum content. But one of the things I read particularly about the steel and aluminum is that this was gonna hit kids' bikes really hard. Yep. And it was gonna hit kids' bikes right as we went into the holiday shopping season when people tend to buy their kids a bike, right? A Christmas. What is better than a Christmas or birthday bike? I should say we don't sell kids' bikes, so we're not really getting directly impacted by that.

Steve: 3:48

Right.

Kristin: 3:48

Other than to say, if we don't get children on bicycles now, correct, yeah, bicycles which have been shown to improve health, combat obesity, reduce screen time, we're not going to get them on bikes later when their brain tells you that's a really stupid thing to do, right? Like we want to get them on, you want them to get into the habit of riding bikes.

Steve: 4:15

Yeah, and you also the more they're into bikes before they start driving, the more they're probably going to stick with bikes. Or come or or come back to them. Yes.

Kristin: 4:27

Um maybe not as a primary source of transportation, but just bikes will become normal. Like it just, it's just somebody who grew up who didn't learn how to run a bike.

Steve: 4:41

One of the companies pushing for this tariff is Guardian bikes. Yes. And Guardian makes kids' bikes in Indiana, I believe. Yeah. Which is awesome. But they're also basically, and they're thinking and their self-interest is we destroy the import market for the kids' bikes, then we will own it here in the United States. Uh, you know, uh, this is um, yeah, everybody's not happy with them.

Kristin: 5:12

Wait, so you actually think Guardian. I did see something and I didn't feel like diving into the morass. So what you're saying is Guardian is actually wants this tariff. They want this tariff.

Steve: 5:27

Yes. They're the one they're one of the yeah, they're they're pushing for this.

Kristin: 5:31

Oh. I would have thought they would be partially against this terror. Well, they're getting tariffed on the steel and aluminum already. Yeah. So they're pro this because then they would be the only ones in the market. Right. Which is what you just said. Okay, got it. You can hear me processing in real time. Yeah, I mean, I think we were on a call or I was on a call with the National Bicycle Dealers Association recently. Uh, there's a thing they do every couple of months called Member Mingle, where we can hang out with other bike shop owners and, you know, ask questions and just see how everybody's doing. And there was one bike shop who was like, is anybody else just getting a real weird vibe off of our suppliers? Like the brands that we're working with, that like almost like they don't know what to make us order, or they don't know what we should order, or like the sales reps are kind of as at sea as anyone else. And we were talking about how the issue's gonna be the landed costs, right? Like if you order a bike, if you order a bunch of bikes now, you nobody knows what they're gonna cost when they're ready to ship in two months because we don't know what the tariffs are gonna be doing.

Steve: 6:52

Yeah, this is always usually the way where you if you're ordering bikes, you're ordering, especially say for now for the 2026 season. Right, many of these bikes wouldn't start arriving, say, December through March. What are they gonna actually cost then, though? Right. Because these are not just like an extra 5%, and maybe you won't see any change from your pricing that you're given now. The the the bike companies will have no choice but to say, we're sorry, but it is now five hundred dollars more for that bike.

Kristin: 7:26

Right. Yeah, right. And so then we're also gonna have issues with people who might be in the market for a new bike, being able to find a bike, um, bike shops not having bikes, or those shops that they have not being able to charge enough for the bikes they have, because even if they bought them before the pandemic, I mean before the pandemic, even if they bought them before the tariffs, to replace them is gonna cost so much more than that original bike. So they have to sell their current inventory at an amount that would allow them to make a profit and buy more inventory if they choose to do so. Yeah, it's an interesting, it's interesting times. And that actually leads us to our our new offering. We have a new offering, uh, because we're in the same there's a couple of things. We're in the same boat that we don't have much inventory right now. Right. Um, but we do get a lot of people in coming to ask you about bikes.

Steve: 8:37

I I we do. And there I would say there have been periods where I have spent 10 to 20 percent of my week just helping people pick what bike they're going to buy at another shop or online. Exactly, and that's not sustainable.

Kristin: 8:57

No, it's not sustainable, but also I think there's so many. I always say when I had to pick my mountain bike, I found the choices overwhelming, and I could only choose from the brands you sold. So that's like two, right? I find the idea that you could buy any bike from any manufacturer, you could buy it from a bike shop, you could buy it online, like so overwhelming. And so we are rolling out a new program that we're calling the STBG Right Ride Program. And the idea is that someone can basically work with you, figure out what they need for a bike for a fee, um, and you will prepare a formal suggestion, recommendation of like three bikes where you say, Okay, based on everything that we talked about, how you ride, where you ride, your ride style, skills, your budget, everything. Here's what I have or might have access to. Yep, maybe not. And here is or here are a couple couple of other options from reputable, what we'll call bike shop brands or and it actually could be from another shop.

Steve: 10:14

Yep. Uh, or it's a direct-to-consumer brand. Yep. Um, or it's a bike shop brand that's say, and this is relevant right now, on clearance at an online retailer.

Kristin: 10:26

Yeah. Oh, and there's so many of those.

Steve: 10:28

And there's so many of those.

Kristin: 10:29

And and the thought is beyond you being compensated, you could have somebody who's gonna save 40% on a bike, but if it's the wrong bicycle, then that's a waste of money. So big waste of money. For $150, you'll take the time to come up with a whole presentation with them. And then if they do buy a bike from you, that fee goes towards the bike. Yeah. If they go with a local bike shop, great, done. That's all done. You make the recommendation, you point them in the right direction, they buy the bike. And if they go with an online option, they can then pay a second fee to have the bike shipped to you, you'll put it together.

Steve: 11:16

Yeah, for local people. So for local people, um, then yeah, then I can also assemble that bike. And while bikes mostly come assembled, there's actually quite a lot to do on them. And a lot of things that bike shops don't do is optimize cable lengths. So you'll like you'll see on dropper posts, you'll see this huge line of of cable housing splaying out of the front, coming around to the dropper lever, because they never bothered optimizing it to your height and your and your length. And all that's I do, all that. So but if you're not local, then then you know you just you still get the benefit of of getting a a better pick. Well, I think that's or acknowledgeable pick.

Kristin: 12:06

Okay, we're back after a abrupt end of conversation.

Steve: 12:12

Technical difficulties, please stand by.

Kristin: 12:15

It's never easy, especially when your producer is also trying to speak. So it's hard to manage all the things that could turn off without you noticing.

Steve: 12:27

We need somebody over there doing all the recording for us.

Kristin: 12:31

What do you think Andres is doing? I think he'd be a boy. Andres likes to be a podcast producer. Anyway, we're back and we are gonna talk about the PMC Unpaved, which we did, I can't even believe it, two weeks ago. We were out in where were we?

Steve: 12:50

Lennox, Massachusetts.

Kristin: 12:52

So that's pretty pretty, for those unfamiliar, pretty close to the that's in the Berkshires.

Steve: 12:58

That is where Tanglewood is, where the Boston Symphony plays in the summertime. In fact, we were about a half a mile from Tanglewood.

Kristin: 13:06

Wow. Okay. Um but before we talk about Unpaved, let's let's roll, let's roll some uh facts about uh the Panmas Challenge. Okay. So the Panmas Challenge is the world's largest athletic-based fundraiser. I think they only say the United States, but is there really any other one that's bigger? I don't think there is.

Steve: 13:30

That'd be something to look up, but I doubt it.

Kristin: 13:32

I doubt it. Founded in 1980, uh, in 2024, they hit one billion dollars raised for the Dana Farber Cancer Institute. And what I always respected about them uh is 100% of rider-raised funds goes to Dana Farber, which if if anyone looks at the numbers for fundraisers and fundraising charitable organizations, that is wildly unusual. Yeah. And they do that by they have sponsors, we pay.

Steve: 14:07

We pay an entry as well as the fundraising in order to do these rides. So between all that, that's how they do their admin costs so that they can have a hundred percent of the actual fundraising funds.

Kristin: 14:18

Yeah. So I mean, just from a fundraising standpoint, and we'll talk about the fundraising uh for it, which is mandatory uh in a minute, but just it makes it easier as a fundraiser to be able to say all of your money that you donate is gonna go to cancer research. It really does. Yeah, that's pretty cool. The signature event of the PMC since the beginning was is their summer, their summer ride. It's always the first week of the weekend of August, and the really iconic ones are they start in Sturbridge and Wellesley. They the first day goes to Bourne, which is basically the gateway to Cape Cod, and then the second day you ride all the way up to the tip uh to Provincetown. Right? Yes, which I used to say, I've done that a couple times now, and I always said the weird thing was if you told me to drive on the Cape in the middle of the summer, I would have told you that you were bananas. There's absolutely no way I'm going to the Cape in the middle of the summer, but oh ride my bike for two days down to the no problem, right?

Steve: 15:29

Yep. So that's almost 200 miles over the two days.

Kristin: 15:32

Yep, yep. And then they added the winter cycle, and they added that they actually they added that my first year of the PMC. So the the this was my tenth year, so um they actually called it the resolution, and it was the like first or second weekend in January.

Steve: 15:53

Yes, held at Fenway Park, it's indoors in the club area, and you sort of overlook the field, yeah, and you're riding spin bikes in there um together.

Kristin: 16:03

Yeah, and it's cool because you get first of all the the spinner who maybe isn't a cyclist, right? The people who only do spin and want to support the PMC. And I also think of it kind of as a nice entry for someone who's interested in doing a PMC. Like I'd like to do it with our son.

Steve: 16:25

But how is it an entry?

Kristin: 16:27

Well, because it's I'm gonna say only, it's only $500 fundraising, and I think the fundraising is a big into the fundraising aspect. An entry into the idea that you're gonna do an event, you're gonna fundraise, the minimum is five hundred dollars per one-hour session. So you do just one session, and you're doing the you're doing this for a good cause, so yeah, and so it just kind of gets you into doing a nonprofit, a charitable event. Our son, for example, isn't necessarily a big cyclist, but I believe his girlfriend does spin, and so that's kind of a way that we could get them into the PMC. That's true, yeah. Family, something to try, and it's just cool. I mean, how often can you say that you rode a spin bike at Fenway Park? Right, right. Like that's a it's a neat event. And then four years ago, they added Unpaved.

Steve: 17:25

Yes, so Unpaved is the Gravel Edition, it's a one-day ride. Yep. And they have two routes that you can choose from. So, and they give it little fun names here. The Raven, uh, which is 30 miles and about 3,000 feet of climbing, and then the Eagle, which is 50 miles and just over 5,000 feet of climbing. So both of them are difficult because of the amount of climbing. Yes. And in this past couple weeks ago, when we were doing the ride, we did the 50, the eagle, and I started looking down at my Garmin at one of the on one of the steep hills, and I was just yelling out the grade percent is as it as it kept going up and up and up. And I think the max we hit was 19%.

Kristin: 18:14

I heard 20 from someone, but uh yeah, I remember at one point just saying, You're not helping, because at 19%, I was going so slowly that my Garmin just paused, it just said Yeah, because you have it set to pause it probably like three or four miles per hour, and yeah, it's about three miles per hour. So I was going just about three miles per hour, and I was like, Well, now we're not speaking, Garmin, because that's just rude.

Steve: 18:43

I have been to other events with this kind of steep terrain where I am riding alongside somebody who's walking, and we are going the same pace. So this that was not the case for me this time. Okay, or at least I never was alongside somebody who was walking, right? But uh yes, that can be the case.

Kristin: 19:07

That has definitely happened to me where there's a thought, like, am I really going any faster than I would if I was if I was just walking this? Or the other one will be you're coming up next to someone and you're like on your left.

Steve: 19:29

Maybe maybe in five minutes, even though your wheel is overlapping in it.

Kristin: 19:35

I come. So, but it's a level grade, it's hard to even describe because to people who don't ride, because it's not even a grade you would see on your car that often.

Steve: 19:51

No, very no, very rarely do roads hit this. These are real back roads, right? And I believe they were all. dirt the ones that were really steep yes yeah oh the the really steep ones and they and the organizers were oh they were so clever they'd be there'd be signs as we approached the really steep they'd be like you're gonna want to start spinning now oh yeah oh thanks right that's really helpful and you'd start you'd be like just stop you're just you're just moving so very very slowly there's a few of us who like to see that on our on our computers that we know it's coming yes you're in the climb you've got the climb program going you can see the the graphical uh nature of what you're about to encounter and so forth and then there's of course there's other people who just say don't show me anything I don't want to know I will get through it yeah that's it that's a good good point so I really like when the Garmin shows me the climb profile like where it says you're entering a climb and it shows you the different colors even if ox blood red pops up a lot and I like it because I think sometimes when you're on first of all I get into like Super Mario Brother head where I can actually hear the do do do do do do or is that Tetris.

Kristin: 21:15

Anyway the point is I can I in my head kind of like start to but I'm just this little I'm a little dot and I'm moving it up the up the slope climb up the slope. And also because sometimes you can't see the top and if you feel like it's out of reach you may stop pedaling. But if I can see it on on the garment I might say oh well this this part this 20% grade is only for another couple of seconds and the top is really really close because it'll tell you how much more is coming and so I find it helps me manage my pain tolerance where I can say okay I can see I can see what's happening. I also think there's a psychological thing that the color goes from that oxblood red to kind of orange ish because now we're at 12% and you're like wow this is easy I could do this all day this is so easy. I don't actually know if it is they could throw any color in front of me at that point and I wouldn't know but yeah it's it's we were talking about this a little bit beforehand on now that I've done I've actually done all these events right I've done a version of the winter cycle I've done the summer PMC several times and now I've done unpaved I've done that 50 and I would say unpaved is hard unpaved is the one you can't really fake it till you make it right like you don't actually have to be someone Anders doesn't do spin but he can get on a a spin bike for an hour he can suffer for an hour regardless. And the summer one assuming assuming the weather's good weather's a huge factor in the summer one but assuming the summer's good and you're okay with just miles on the saddle yeah it's a relatively flat it's a relatively easy ish right it's it's no joke it's it's not not hard still a lot of miles still a lot of miles still a lot of hours on the saddle but unpaved I would say is the most demanding regardless of the weather regardless of anything just in its purest form it's the most demanding if you added rain and a bunch of other stuff to it would be real bad. Right? Right. So it's if there's anything I'd love to see them add if they can and we talked about this is a version of the Raven so a 30 mile but maybe with not quite so much climbing. There is on this the the last climb both the 30 and the 50 do it it it ends with this it's a it's kind of mean because it's a really steep climb that you're like yes so good and then you come over the top and it starts to go up again to the highest point of unpaved.

Steve: 24:29

You know the funny thing is is that everybody kept talking about that and they're like how there was a big climb and it was long and everything. And I was like what are you talking about? It's really really sh short short relative and that first part which is super steep yes is probably half a mile maybe right and I was like look see that was nothing to and then we go down a little bit on single track and then yes climb climb climb climb but that second part to me that was nothing.

Kristin: 24:57

Yeah so well with that my point is this that first part of that climb that's the part I think that if you could skip that somehow ah right if you could do the steep it get around the then I think you would have a slightly more you could have not you could have something that someone doesn't have to feel like oh this is really hardcore but I love it for the challenge of it. I have become someone who really likes to climb those things and to afterwards say well I didn't put my foot down.

Steve: 25:40

Like I got it I got it I did it slowly that's why when you're riding along somebody who's walking even though you're going the same pace it is still that I am going to make this climb.

Kristin: 25:52

Sometimes getting off and walking can be good because it can help reset your muscles and shift if you're cramping or anything like that. So I'm I'm certainly a believer that in every gravel biker is a built-in hiker and that's you know you have to go into this kind of thing being okay with that.

Steve: 26:11

We've talked about it before we're gonna talk about it now gearing is a huge piece of this oh a massive piece of this and and here in New England that's why I always recommend gravel bikes using mountain bike rear end cassettes. Right the the Eagle 10 through 52 or Shimano's 10 through 51 you just you cannot go low enough on on some of these events uh the unpaved or um what's the uh Vermont Overland um and D2R2 yes they we they tend to throw the kitchen sink at you with high percentage grades.

Kristin: 26:53

Now I will say we were riding with someone who did part of D2R2 with us and we were reflecting about it afterwards I'm gonna say D2R2 was hard oh absolutely so this isn't by any stretch the hardest gravel ride there and it was a I mean it's a beautiful route no if anything it just really has what three the 50 mile had three hard climbs yeah fairly long yep yeah but and a lot of climbing otherwise but I'd say those hard hard climbs were right about three of them. What other gear would you say somebody needed I mean we talked about the gearing what did we have for tires what were we running for tires on that you had 45 millimeter tires.

Steve: 27:42

I had my bananas yes your yellow pan erasers uh very spectacular got a lot of I have had 50 millimeter tires on my bike for most of the summer oh for ice I put them on for Iceland okay haven't taken them off they roll phenomenally and I didn't see a need to change them so I was really happy with that but the roads are are really just gravel dirt roads and you could get away with something thinner at D2R2 or unpaved.

Kristin: 28:12

Unpaved right and maybe D2R2 too but what is interesting about unpaved when you're talking to someone who hasn't done a gravel ride like a PMCer who hasn't done they've done the summer but they haven't done well there are a few people who brought their road bikes. Oh were they oh yes well I was gonna say we get a lot of questions from our team who haven't come out to do it where it they seem to think it's single track. Like we're out there doing mountain biking and we're not it's really dirt roads.

Steve: 28:49

But you actually saw road bikes yeah not many two I can think of in my head. Okay yeah and with old like one one one was a Cannondale with old school gearing really yeah and 25 millimeter tires yeah I yeah I'm not sure how he was managing um a lot of these roads were freshly graded yes and they were very loose and we had some really sketchy descents because the roads the gravel was so loose from being graded recently yeah I think that's well let's talk about some of the technique or etiquette so number one is when you have loose like that you really can't just let it fly on a on going downhill like you might be tempted to on a road bike.

Kristin: 29:37

Speak for yourself but okay I cannot really let it fly there's it is a high degree of paying attention is really it really is and keeping your weight back and really you know we were talking about how there were some people riding that were they kept pointing to things like you do on a road ride where you like a whole uh gravel gravel rides do we point at things yes I do I point the things like I do in a road bike but way less so on a gravel bike and that's because I not assuming these two people that I saw on regular road bikes are on gravel bikes so that they have wider tires hopefully running in the 20s or 30 psi range.

Steve: 30:27

And so a lot of the things that would really jar or throw a road bike offline should not even phase a gravel bike. And so those are the things in my head that I just don't even bother pointing out.

Kristin: 30:39

Yeah but you also have to keep in mind that you got to hold your line. So there is a possibility you're gonna end up going into a little bit of a rut or something like that because you can't be swerving out of the way. It's such a big group and we're all trying to stay in did get called out on was to do a better job of holding my line going around curves.

Steve: 31:04

I will say on some of those big very loose descents you you can't so you you could be coming around one of these corners and you you know you might be on the inside line thinking you're gonna follow that inside line and that soft gravel is going to say no there's no way you're you're you know I I you're going down if you try to hold that line right and you have to let the bike wander outside now this is speed related yeah the faster you're going the more you're gonna have to let the bike wander out to the apex of the or the the outside of the curve. Okay. Because otherwise you are risking breaking traction you know so that's just normal but speed usually everybody is giving wide berth around yeah each other just to make sure because you know it is a it's there's there was some sketchy downhill so when you're on the dirt roads you you also ride a little differently you you try you're not really doing paceling like you would in on pavement one of our friends was like wait is it paceline oh my no it's like you keep you keep thinking we're gonna get ourselves organized and it is just right it's just not gonna happen also I think it's just the philosophy of a a ride versus a race yes right it's I mean yes there are no because on a lot of rides we I have been in a lot of just rides not races where we are pacelining and we are hauling and it doesn't matter that it's just a ride. We are we are there to get it done and done quick.

Kristin: 32:45

I you know what even as you say that you're absolutely right I mean during the summer PMC there are a lot of teams that will paceline and not tell you they're there. So you're absolutely right yeah um on the road much more likely to have some pacelining happening I didn't but I don't see that anything anywhere unpaved it is a very much a casual vibe at Unpaved.

Steve: 33:08

Yeah even from people who might paceline in other events this is a super casual event.

Kristin: 33:14

Let's talk about fundraising okay and one of the reasons we did want to get involved with Unpaved was the fundraising is $2,000 $2,000 each and that's mandatory when we sign up we give our credit card and we say yeah if you don't cover the fundraising then they charge your for the boundaries we're getting charged but the traditional summer PMC is anywhere from $2000 to the two days like six thousand dollars and so we liked the fact that we could both do unpaved because then I only then I only had to fundraise for four thousand dollars for both of us instead of I am bad at fundraising and I did a little better this year but uh I am still not good at it I it I get it. I I really do get it it we have an additional challenge here in Massachusetts in that this is where PMC is based and so everyone gets hit up by many many people for the PMC. My best years as a fundraiser for the summer PMC was when listeners of Manic Mommies were fundraising. Right. And I was getting money from all over the country from people who had never heard of the PMC right and so that was just an untapped market. So now it's it's really challenging and I would say the biggest mistake we made our first year or I made our first year of Unpaved is we didn't even start our fundraising until the summer PMC was over. Right and the problem was nobody knew what unpaved was and then if they figured it out they're like but I already made all my donations right I have a certain amount of money that I'm gonna donate to PMC writers. Right.

Steve: 35:17

Yes so now I gave mine the smart move is you start fundraising with all the rest of the summer PMCs you're all doing the PMC this year.

Kristin: 35:27

Right.

Steve: 35:27

Summer doing the summer we're doing the we're doing the fall doesn't matter you're just all fundraising together.

Kristin: 35:32

Yeah but it's never I I don't think anyone finds fundraising to be that easy or that enjoyable one of the ways I make it a little easier for myself is I try to come up with something this year it was a sticker that used the John F. Kennedy quote we do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard. So that I have something to give to say thank you and then also it forces me to do thank you notes. And you know it's really fun when you see your sticker like on oh yeah I've seen it on a couple bikes I've seen it on a couple of water bottles so it is nice. It's I think people appreciate getting a little something.

Steve: 36:15

Then of course then we have our budget to give out to right you know so yeah and that's the other thing is that of course like all the PMCers are getting donations from the same people who are also giving out donations to the PMC.

Kristin: 36:32

It does feel a little like we're all just giving to each other yes like last year I think I made the decision because like everyone else we have a certain amount that we can donate where I did two things. I looked through anyone who was riding that we knew to see if they had met their minimum and if they hadn't met their minimum I made a donation so no offense to the people that were like I'm I'm gunning for 20 grand. I love you and I am so proud of you but if somebody was at $4,000 and they had a $6,000 then I was gonna give money there. Yeah. The other is teenagers and young adults so anyone who's this year we had a couple of kids join from our team um Melissa's son's had two sons right we had all of these teenagers and and young adults and none of them had hit their minimum either so I donated to all of them. So I just I feel like everybody has to find their strategy but it does it does feel bad sometimes when your friend donates to you and you're like thanks thanks and then you don't donate back.

Steve: 37:43

Oh right yeah yes so now you know I have explained it to some people or we have we have our own personal donation strategy right yeah I think everybody has to what else about PMC on page should people know about uh well it's a it's really kind of a weekend event so summer camp most grown ups people get there around two or three on the Friday the day before and this is at a boys summer camp in the Berkshires and then that whole evening is just wonderful they have fire pits going they feed you dinner in the cafeteria they have I'm sorry we call that a mess hall mess hall you're right uh Sam Adams is there handing out drinks yep and there's a couple other vendors there everybody you're making s'mores everybody's just about on the lawn next to the lake it is just a wonderful wonderful atmosphere and then you wake up and it's not a it's not a super early morning you get they feed you breakfast you get your stuff together the ride starts at nine so not one of these crazy early rides luxurious given that I've left Bourne at four o'clock in the morning you know the the sun isn't even up right it's so luxurious yeah it really is it's a very nice morning go back to the van yep they got the coffee there and and then you get back and then a lot of people do leave after the ride but for those who stay for Saturday night they have they feed you dinner again and Saddam Adams is still there handing out drinks and the bourbon and then of course you're after the ride so you yeah the bourbon company right so you've got a lot more drinking going on that night the fire pits are out all the Adirondack chairs and then they late night they bring in pizzas which was like what around it was probably around eight wasn't all that late late night well you know in October the sun's well down been down for a couple hours.

Kristin: 39:42

It's been a long day but it's also eight o'clock at night yes and that pizza I mean let's be clear I haven't had pizza in years because I have issues with dairy I probably ate five five pieces I remember saying to Jarrett, who's the CEO of PMC, I am completely gonna regret this in the morning. And I did totally the next morning. I was like, I think I'm dying. I was so my system was like, eject. Richard, what did you do? Oh, but it was so good. Like the cheese was so cheesy.

Steve: 40:25

Yeah.

Kristin: 40:27

It was so good. Yeah. It's just, it does, it has a very much a summer camp vibe. Obviously, you said it. It said a boys summer camp camp Mackinac. And it's also just that shared mission. It's not the same as just again, like after DT War 2, we all had lunch and that was fun. But it's you're there for a shared purpose, a shared mission. And the other thing is the summer PMC is thousands of people. Yes. Right. So when you pull into Bourne, that's after day one, there's dinner and there's and there's stuff going on, but it's just there's just people everywhere. It's it's gigantic. You're not necessarily you might run into a friend here or there. And then when you get to Provincetown, we just kind of disperse. Like we get to P Town, we're like, thanks, good, good to see you go. Like there's no, there's no final thing. Unpaved is 400 people. How many was it? Yeah, four to five hundred. You know, so it's it's in it feels so much more intimate. Like showing up to register one of the women at the merch tent. We've seen her every year for four years. She was like, Hey, you're back. How are you? How are the kids? You know, which I've seen her once in every year. So, and you get to hang out with people, like you're gonna see them time and time and time again. So it just has an intimacy to it that I mean it has to grow, it's going to grow. I know that, but I don't think it'll ever be as big as the summer. It just can't be gravel rides, aren't that? But it's what I love so much about it is that those moments sitting around the fire, making your s'mores with your Reese's peanut butter cup, which is magic, that I really appreciated. This was our first time staying until Sunday because in part because we were gonna see our daughter the next day on the way home. Um was fun. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can't keep up with the the bourbon and the and the drinking and stuff like that. They had none on the stuff. Just a little taste.

Steve: 42:33

That's all that's all Stephen kept saying. Oh, just a little taste. Oh, yeah.

Kristin: 42:38

I was like, how many, how many of those tiny little shot glasses? They were like tiny little red solo cups. How many of those is a drink? And he's like, none. They don't add up. I'm pretty sure they do. But anyway, that was that's PMC Unpaved. We're gonna do a full eval of all of the rides we've done. But I will say it checks all the boxes for me for the kind of event that I like to give my money and my time to. It is PMC events without question are the best supported of any events I've done.

Steve: 43:17

The first year we joke that there was about a two to one volunteer to rider ratio. So many people came out to volunteer, and you gotta thank all of those volunteers, and they have so many, and they're so dedicated, and they're so dedicated, and and just that's what makes this thing.

Kristin: 43:35

Yeah, and they have great ride support, and they have great, you know, lots of snacks, good food, good rest areas, and I will also say it is one of the best documented rides you will ever.

Steve: 43:49

Oh, the drone guy does some phenomenal work, yeah.

Kristin: 43:53

They they always have a full Glenn from Snowcap video is always there, and he always has a full team, and they do um, and they also have volunteer photographers there. So you just you're never not gonna get into a shot, you're never not gonna have a picture from your ride, which is just cool. It's just cool to have so yeah, so that's it. PMC Unpaved in the books. Now we just have to hope that next year does not conflict with UMass homecoming. Yeah. Because we did promise our daughter would go to homecoming her senior year. Let's um take a break in a controlled manner this time. We can come back and wrap this up with a couple of we got some good stuff coming up, actually. Yeah, we've got some good stuff coming up.

Steve: 44:49

We're back. Yes, and just to finalize on Paid, we got some feedback.

Kristin: 44:56

Okay, so first of all, shout out. We had a listener, Kevin, approach us to tell us that he had discovered us maybe through a friend of a friend, and he had a long drive from Washington, D.C. multi-hour, and he he dove deep into the the show and listened to the two of us yammer on for multiple hours, and he said he he loved it. He particularly liked the episode Why Your Wife Needs the Better Bike.

Steve: 45:30

Why Your Wife Needs a Better Bike. Yes, he went into all of that and how that is quite important.

Kristin: 45:35

Yeah, and he actually said that that episode inspired him to upgrade when he was buying his daughter a new bike. Right. He was gonna buy her a bike with mechanical brakes, but he paid like $500 extra to get hydraulic.

Steve: 45:54

Hydraulic disc brakes, yep, yep, on the road bike.

Kristin: 45:56

Why is that a what what kind of why is that a good upgrade?

Steve: 46:02

Okay, so to make this real quick, so make mechanical disc brakes, they don't have the stopping power. On rare occasion, you can get near the stopping power. It is rare. Okay. It is it is it can be the same brake that is awful most of the 90% of the time, and yeah, occasionally you'll get one that just seems to work well very well. They don't compensate for padware either. Oh, so you have to constantly as the pads get thinner, the lever throw gets further, and you have to adjust the brakes.

Kristin: 46:35

I have to squeeze so much for them to work.

Steve: 46:39

And you know, this was about sort of buying your wife a better bike in this guy, in this case, there was this guy's daughter. Yeah. And the the just the pure fact of it is that women have smaller, weaker hands. Yes. And it takes a stronger hand to brake with enough force on mechanical disc brakes because they there's a lot of pressure to pull those levers, a lot more than hydraulic disc brakes. Right. They also you have to deal with the cable wear, the cables get grimy and gritty, and that's that causes just reduced performance on the brakes. Okay. Hydraulic brakes. Hydraulic disc brakes, yes.

Kristin: 47:16

An extra $500. That was a big upgrade, and it's gonna mean she's gonna be very she's gonna be that much happier with the biggest. Oh, that much happier.

Steve: 47:25

Braking is super important.

Kristin: 47:26

Yeah, and if that is not the reason that we do this podcast, I honestly don't know why, like that alone is is why I'm glad we do this show. Did have one person who said, we have a very bad habit of dropping enticing bits of information and then never going back to it.

Steve: 47:50

Okay.

Kristin: 47:51

For example, you built a Raleigh Technium as an e-bike for your son.

Steve: 47:58

We just kind of dropped that.

Kristin: 47:59

That was it. We just we just kept on trucking.

Steve: 48:02

Got it. And was there a little more explanation on that?

Kristin: 48:05

We well, there's a lot more expl we offered no more explanation on that. And the question was, what the heck are you talking about? What do you mean you built how did you take a bike that you bought when you were 16 and convert it into an e-bike that our son could use to commute to school?

Steve: 48:27

So there is a company called Switch, and there have been many e-bike conversion companies out there, a lot, not so great. So this company's switch spelled with a Y. They are out of Great Britain, I believe. Yep. And it is a front wheel add-on, basically. So you are just putting in the front wheel and you're connecting a bunch of wires. Uh the battery will either sit up on your handlebars or sometimes on the inside the triangle of the frame. Okay. And now one goes on a rear rack. Um, so it's and it's actually it's it is a certainly a self-doable install, but it's a fairly complicated in terms of just managing the wires. Right. But that's it. And so just you bolt on the you bolt on the or you just put in the the front wheel, right? Attach the battery, a little controller up of the handlebar, and they're and off you're off and running. And so it can convert a lot of bikes to an e-bike fairly easily. It is mainly intended for simpler bikes.

Kristin: 49:31

Yes, okay. Yeah, so you buy the certain kind of wheel that matches your bicycle. Yes. And one of the nice things, I will take some pictures of it and put them on our website and in social and everything. What I like about it is it's not obvious when you look at this bike that there's something technological going on with it because the battery, which is about the size of a Nintendo Switch, interestingly, comes out. So he could he would pull the battery out and put it in his bag and bring it in to school. So now you just have an old bike with this thing on the front. You wouldn't really know.

Steve: 50:15

I mean, it's an oversized front hub. Yeah. Most people are actually aren't even looking for at the front hub to see if something's an e-bike. Right.

Kristin: 50:23

And he said it worked perfectly for him. He was what, two miles from his battery was very small.

Steve: 50:30

As you said, it was the size of like a Nintendo Switch. Yeah. So his his range was only like at most 15 miles. Um, but yeah, he would use he yeah, he was lived, he lived a couple miles from campus.

Kristin: 50:42

He moved he lived downhill two miles from campus. So he was come it was uphill all the way there. Yep. So he would use, he said he would use the full boost all the way there. Yep. I think he would basically use it because he was.

Steve: 50:57

Yeah, and then he and then it was another hill to get back to the top of campus and then basically coasting all the way down.

Kristin: 51:04

Yeah, and he he surprised us, he used it a lot, he really liked it. So, so that is the that is we've we do have to try not to drop these little gems in there and then go, okay, moving on. And we did actually get a second switch kit switch kit um for a Surly that I have. I don't know where that stands and it's being installed.

Steve: 51:30

So that one has a larger battery, so that battery's gonna go inside the triangle.

Kristin: 51:34

Oh, okay.

Steve: 51:35

All right, so that's gonna get strapped underneath the top tube. Yeah, that you'll have more range on that. That is almost ready.

Kristin: 51:41

Okay, just in time for the winter. Just in time for the winter. Yeah. So the but somebody asked me why bother with an e-bike? And I I said, I'm actually thinking of using it to commute back and forth, or at least one way, to work through the woods. And again, the idea is just not to have it be a fully fatiguing ride. I want to be able to get to work and still be fresh and not sweaty necessarily and exactly, exactly. So I'm excited for that. All right, is there anything else you would like to cover before we wrap up? Because we have a big video.

Steve: 52:18

I have one quick scene while scrolling. Uh, this was an interesting article I saw from Scientific America for their 180th birthday, and they took a 1973 graphic that they had published about the different forms of animal locomotion and their efficiency, and they added humans on a bicycle into that graph.

Kristin: 52:42

So the original in 1973 was like how fast a cat moves a cat and a fish.

Steve: 52:49

And so forth in terms of their efficiency of moving right, moving themselves. Yes. And so now when they put humans on bikes, it turns out that humans are pretty much the most efficient animal on the planet when you're on a bicycle. Yeah. So it is a bicycle, it is just it, what does it say? They turn humans into this hyper-efficient terrestrial locomotor because they make being on land more like swimming.

Kristin: 53:21

You know, I believe it. I have to say, I love riding my bike, as you know. I feel like a more coordinated person on my bike. I'm constantly running into things and tripping over things, but on my bike, I feel pretty coordinated. But I also remember, do you remember we had a customer in a couple of years ago? I think she was like 80 and she was on her bicycle and she was telling me how her friends keep telling her she has to give up riding. I have to give up, you know, I should give up riding. And she said, I am never giving up riding. I feel young and I feel fast. And she's just going on the rail trail. Let's be clear, she wasn't racing, she was it was just a cruiser bike. And but yeah, bikes are awesome. Yeah, bikes are efficient. We can leave it at that. It's why I'm always like, why are we hiking when I can be riding my bicycle?

Steve: 54:19

You do always say that. It's so dumb.

Kristin: 54:23

Anyway, speaking of which, yes, we're very exciting. Tomorrow we are doing a 50K mountain bike ride. I'm a little nervous about that. These are great days. That'll be exciting, exactly. All right, well, let's wrap this up. Cycling Together with Kristin and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in Eastern Massachusetts and Sunday Marketing.

Steve: 54:49

If you'd like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic suggestion. Visit cyclingtogether.bike.

Kristin: 54:58

You can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok at Steve the Bike Guy. If you do listen and you want to share a little love, you can leave a comment or a uh review on any of our podcasting apps. That is always appreciated.

Steve: 55:13

Very much so. Yep. Okay. We'll see you next time.

Kristin: 55:16

Thanks for joining the ride.