18. Are E-Mountain Bikes (EMTB) Inevitable?

E-mountain bikes are on the rise, and according to some industry insiders, e-bikes will soon represent more than half the bikes on the trail one day. But should we, as Outside Magazine asks, “just submit to our eMTB future?”

After breaking down the different classes of e-bikes, Kristin and Steve unpack their biases before digging deep into the growth; drawbacks including raising the bar to entry and costs of maintenance, dangers related to bad batteries as well as the potential issues and the etiquette. We also recognize we have a lot to learn, and that our attitudes and opinions may change as we give e-mountain bikes a try.

Seen while scrolling: Articles in Road.cc and Bike Radar inspire a conversation about cross-chaining and whether it is really an issue. 

Reader question: Steve shares how to care for a slightly rusty chain and when to know if your chain has “too much” rust.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:05

This is Kristen.

SPEAKER_00: 0:06

And this is Steve. And you were listening to Cycling Together, a show all about bikes, riding, and riding together. So we have a show today that's um we're gonna probably be recurring this topic, uh, re you know, returning to this topic many times.

SPEAKER_02: 0:22

I want to call it something inflammatory. And like the trouble with e-mountain bikes.

SPEAKER_00: 0:27

Yeah, and it's and it's gonna it's this one always stirs up controversy and it's gonna it's gonna certainly stir ourselves up here.

SPEAKER_02: 0:35

Yeah, I'm excited. So we're gonna talk about e-bikes, e-mountain bikes in particular.

SPEAKER_00: 0:39

Yeah, e-mountain bikes.

SPEAKER_02: 0:41

Do you remember the first time we saw e-mountain bikes?

SPEAKER_00: 0:45

You know, in the wild.

SPEAKER_02: 0:46

In the wild, not in an industry.

SPEAKER_00: 0:49

It's not like I didn't know it was there. What what was that? But as I'd say in the wild, yeah, it was for our anniversary trip to Switzerland.

SPEAKER_02: 0:56

Which was what year?

SPEAKER_00: 0:58

2018.

SPEAKER_02: 0:59

2018. And we were in Zermott. Yep. Right? Yeah. And they used them all over town because there's no cars in Zermott. I think you're the right, right? So there's no there's no cars. We had to leave our car and take a train in. And so they were using these e-mountain bikes, you know, it was like a mountain bike with the battery like you could see it you could on the down tube.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

Yeah, it was either on the down tube or on the on the rear rack.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28

Yes, yeah, I guess there were some. And so they used them all over town. Um, and then we saw, I will never forget seeing a couple. We were headed down a dirt road type thing in Zermont, and here come these two mom bikers, just boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And that was the first time. I I mean, obviously, I wasn't not obviously, I wasn't reading any of the industry publications, so I will admit it wasn't even on my radar that's a good idea. Yeah, I think it was a little more shock to you. It was much more shocking to me. But I also thought, well, that's cool. That's very, it was very cool, right? So fast forward to today. And we were having a conversation with a friend about group rides and how there seemed to be more and more e-bikes showing up at group rides.

SPEAKER_00: 2:29

And yes, he leads an e-bike, he leads a I'm sorry, he leads a mountain bike ride. Right. And he was a little shocked at how many e-bikes were showing up for this ride. Surprised, surprised, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

And do the conversation we got into was do e-bikes beget more e-bikes?

SPEAKER_00: 2:49

Mm-hmm. And do they change the ride?

SPEAKER_02: 2:52

Do they change the ride? Yeah. And then you found an article, completely forgetting that we were gonna be talking about this.

SPEAKER_00: 3:00

Yeah, two days ago. I think it just came out. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 3:02

But you sent me an article that was titled, Should We All Just Submit to Our E Mountain Bike Future in Outside Magazine.

SPEAKER_03: 3:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 3:12

So before we get into it, let's um let's unpack our biases. Yeah. Because we have them. Yeah, we do. So, first of all, as a shop, we don't sell them.

SPEAKER_00: 3:22

We don't. We service them.

SPEAKER_02: 3:24

Or service them.

SPEAKER_00: 3:25

Um, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 3:27

No, I know you don't. I I'm just trying to figure out how to break that down. Let's start with why you don't sell them.

SPEAKER_00: 3:34

Why I don't sell them.

SPEAKER_02: 3:35

Right. Because you have manufacturers that you work with that do sell them. Right. And you have chosen not to.

SPEAKER_00: 3:41

Right. Why? Uh because the well, the insurance is really expensive. Okay. And um, and uh the reason behind that is the the battery fires that have been happening.

SPEAKER_01: 3:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 3:54

Right. So and then we should talk about that in a second. And then you need, you know, you need a new special fireproof cabinet to store the batteries in.

SPEAKER_02: 4:02

What do you do if the battery doesn't come out of the bike? Because a lot of them don't come out of the bike anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

You're right. Not easily, you're right. So that that's exactly why insurance is expensive.

SPEAKER_02: 4:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 4:13

They're heavy. Oh, they're heavy. They're heavy. So you need a different stand. I would need a motorized lift stand. Right. Um, which in itself is heavy. And I don't think the floor of my shop and your shop is melting. Would would hold a hundred, like you now you're concentrating the weight, right? So I don't know if it would hold that hundred plus pound motorized stand with a 75-pound bike uh, you know, lifting up on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:46

My right, which is also why we you don't service them. I mean, there is the whole bikes that are not coming from, say, we'll say non-bike shop brand e-bikes, which are its own cluster, you know what, to unpack, but you don't have the equipment to do it. It's not it's hard on your body, they're heavy. Right. If you sold them, what what would you sell? How would you decide what to sell?

SPEAKER_00: 5:19

I would I would only sell brands that are using probably Shimano or Bosch motors. Okay. Just because those motors are very well supported, the parts are available. I think that they will have longevity in terms of having parts available. And there are so many e-bikes out there that basically have um no uh no support for their motors or just generic motors. Now, there's a couple other of known branded motor companies out there, and they are up and coming, and they would probably be fine, actually.

SPEAKER_02: 6:02

It is the Wild West on batteries, and in fact, it's going to get worse, not better, because even as the industries have been pushing for standards with the consumer the CPS.

SPEAKER_00: 6:20

Yeah, we should just tell we should we need to say this. We need to we need to say what just happened. Right. So So there was a five-panel on the consumer product safety commission.

SPEAKER_02: 6:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 6:30

And there were five people on the and they voted three to two to create battery, basically battery standards.

SPEAKER_02: 6:38

Which which organizations like the National Bicycle Dealers Association has been pushing hard for? Yes. And should be. I mean, there have been bike shops in New York City that have gone up in flames and taken entire blocks with it.

SPEAKER_00: 6:53

And killed people. And killed people.

SPEAKER_02: 6:55

So, okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 6:58

So so what happened was uh the administration fired those three people.

SPEAKER_02: 7:04

Fired the three Democrats that were on the three Democrats that voted for it, that were on the committee. Yep. They fired.

SPEAKER_00: 7:11

They fired. And so now there's only two left. So those two decided okay, now there's the two of us can vote, so we will vote for no standards, Wild West. Yes. Who want who you know, government should not have regulations.

SPEAKER_02: 7:23

This is not a political statement that we're making. No, it's a safety statement that the the CPSC, did I get that right, is reducing oversight on a variety of things. Right. And the batteries are a big piece of it. And I do have concerns about in general, the cheaper e-bikes and people bringing them into their homes and their homes bursting into flames.

SPEAKER_00: 7:51

And that this would have begun to solve that problem, and now it's going to probably get worse. Um fantastic. And so and the other thing is that I think there needed to be more of a um a standard for putting batteries into bikes, the connection point to the motors. Yeah. And if there was a standard there, then we wouldn't have every company making their own battery system. And so that is what a lot of a lot of e-bikes become obsolete quickly because companies stop making the battery for that bike. So even in just a matter of a few years sometimes, if your battery goes bad and you need to get a replacement, oh, we don't make that battery anymore. Right. We we change the we change the connection point. So therefore, there's no battery out in the market anymore that will connect into your motor, right? Or connect into your into the frame, which connects to the wiring, which connects to the motor.

SPEAKER_02: 8:57

That's uh an issue. You had a bike in the shop that had a bad battery, and you were telling me what would be involved. This was a road bike, but you were telling me what would be involved to dig that thing out of the frame. You might stay to it.

SPEAKER_00: 9:13

It was inside the frame on a road bike, it and I had to do it once before, and it's a five, six-hour job that involves a lot of swearing.

SPEAKER_02: 9:25

You get the swearing for free. Okay, so that's our first bias number one. We don't sell them for a variety of reasons. It is technology that's moving very, very fast, so that's why you're seeing a lot of the changes. And again, it's unregulated. I mean, look how long it took for us to get a USB C on all of our phones. Because and that was only because the European Union made Apple do it. But I've been I've been carrying around lightning cables for the last 15 years. So okay. Then let's talk about our attitudes about it. We don't ride them. We're going to ride them someday. I mean, probably when NEMBA was taking a hard stance against e-mountain bikes during the pandemic in particular, right? And they were saying to you and all the other bike shops, just don't sell them. Just don't sell e-bikes, which was so so ridiculous. We said we would rather Nemba advocate for and protect the trails from e-bikes and for e-bikes than to have a completely separate because someday we too may want to ride e-bikes. But we don't right now. And I have to say, I definitely still feel like this feels a little like the conversation I'm having with people about AI. And all the people that keep saying to me, Well, you just have to accept it and adopt it, and it's gonna take over everything. And I I'm just railing against the overutilization of this technology, and it feels a little like that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:17

Well, you all you see and you show me all of the issues that it has. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02: 11:22

I just think with mountain biking, I like with we had a we had an interview with Jackie. Yes, and she said in her interview as we were talking about why she got into e-biking, I mean why she got into mountain biking, she liked it because it was hard. And that's what I like about mountain biking. I I'm not looking for it to be easier. No, I may get there, so that's my bias. I know my bias is in play. Yeah, but I definitely, and I know I have friends too, where I'll see someone on an e-mountain bike and I'll go, you don't need to, you don't need that. What are you doing? You don't need that. And then that's me. That's my that's my head space. That's my headspace.

SPEAKER_00: 12:04

It is right, yeah. And and I'm I'm gonna make a lot of people mad with this comment, but we here we are in May, and I get to this point in the spring on my on my mountain bike, where no matter how hard I push, yeah, I don't it I cannot push my legs hard enough, they don't fatigue. My lungs, my lungs, my lungs can't my cardiovascular can't necessarily keep up. But I cannot get my legs to fatigue. Now, if I'm out for a three-hour ride, yes. But if I'm we're talking, you know, 10, 15 mile mountain bike ride. Right. Right? And and when I get to that point, it's just great, right? And it because it takes some time on this every spring to get to that point.

SPEAKER_02: 12:46

Yes, yeah. It's the we're we're back on the bikes, we're getting our legs back, we're getting our lungs back. Maybe we did some work in the basement, maybe we didn't. But it does so just take a step back. You sent me this article. Should we all just submit to our e-mountain bike future? It's from Outside magazine. And some of the things that were said in it were this year, Santa Cruz Bicycles expects to sell more e-mountain bikes than pedal bikes. Specialized, specialized turbo levo model has been its top-selling mountain bike for years, and Cannodale has more e-mountain bikes in development than analog. Industry-wide bike shops still sell more pedal bikes than e-mountain bikes, but product managers from the brands above believe e-bikes will soon represent more than half the bikes on the trail.

SPEAKER_00: 13:40

Yeah, and that just I know half the bikes on the trail. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 13:48

It's just and it's a moment for me.

SPEAKER_00: 13:51

If if they were all class one.

SPEAKER_02: 13:56

Okay, well let's take a step. Let's let's dig into e-bikes for a little bit. Let's let's take our let's take a step back. Yeah. What are the differences? Oh, I had those great printouts. I wonder where they went. Okay. What are the differences between a class one, a class two, and a class three e-bike?

SPEAKER_00: 14:16

Class one is the most common. Okay. Class one means pedal assist. The motor does not activate unless you are pedaling. Yes. And you can usually choose the boost amount, though.

SPEAKER_01: 14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:27

And the maximum speed is 20 miles per hour. At that point, you can go faster, but the motor kicks out.

SPEAKER_02: 14:33

And we're not just talking about e-bikes. This is road bikes too. And the reason that reminded me of when one of my teammates, one of my PMC teammates' fathers, who is in his 70s, got an e road bike. And he and I were riding, and he's like, Kristen, it's great. I can go so fast. I can go so fast. And I said, Yeah, but it's a it's a class one road bike, so it's not gonna boost you more than 20. No, no, I can go so much faster. I was like, Yes, you can go faster when you're going downhill, but you cannot go faster under pedal assist than I think it's actually 19. And he's like, nope, nope, nope, nope. So anyway, we hit a hill. Yes, we're going up a hill. Yeah, and I just take off because I I'm just like, I know what you're saying, but it's important that you understand what you have as a bicycle. Well, he you can go 30 miles an hour downhill. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 15:30

Absolutely. He was getting up to speed faster, and in his head that that meant that he was faster.

SPEAKER_02: 15:37

Such a dream crusher. It just was really, it was really funny to have that conversation. But there's no throttle. It's just, I I equate it almost just not entirely accurate, a moving sidewalk. Like it's a you're moving just a bit faster. You're walking, but you're more efficient. Yeah. And you're walking.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

Right. A moving sidewalk is a good way to that's how I always think of that.

SPEAKER_02: 15:57

Because I did have an e step-through commuter bike that I used for a little bit. And you rode it home once, and you got home, and you're like, that is the worst bicycle ever. And I said, Because you tried to ride it like you normally ride a bike. And and E this step-through commuter bike was meant to be ridden in my jeans, right? So I always said it safely, efficiently, and and not that sweaty. But you tried to boost it past its 20, and it was heavy, it did not like to go past its right. I do 20 miles an hour. Right, yeah. Right. So um, anyway. All right, so class two. Class one. So class two.

SPEAKER_00: 16:40

Class two is the same thing, but with a throttle. So you don't have to pedal at all. You can just twist a throttle and the bike will go. It is basically an e-scooter, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 16:53

Why are we calling that a bicycle then?

SPEAKER_00: 16:55

Because it's still a bicycle. It's still the it could be the exact same bike of cloud of the same one with class one, but it has a throttle. Okay. All right, it's still the same limitation with 20 miles per hour.

SPEAKER_02: 17:04

Oh, okay. That's important.

SPEAKER_00: 17:06

Okay, got it. All right. And then class three is pedal assist just clock by like class one, except that its maximum speed is 28 miles per hour.

SPEAKER_02: 17:16

Okay. So no throttle.

SPEAKER_00: 17:18

No throttle. Nope. Pedal assist, 28 miles per hour. These, a class three, if I were to get a commuter bike, yes, right, I would get a class three. Because I find the limitation of 20 miles per hour too slow.

SPEAKER_01: 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:35

I can see that. And and so I and I tell people that if you're gonna get if you're getting a commuter bike, look for a class three. It now that class three's that speed is illegal in Europe, which is why a lot of companies either don't make it or they don't make as they have a couple only, have a couple models that are class three. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:56

None of these are gas powered.

SPEAKER_02: 17:57

There's no such thing as gas-powered. What is the thing that that kid is riding in the woods that it sounds like a little gas-powered it's a bicycle, it's a scooter. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_00: 18:11

Well, there were old gas-powered kits you could throw on the bicycles and yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:16

Okay. That was every now and then you see a kid like banging through the woods on something. They're like, it's not a BMX, it's not a scooter.

SPEAKER_00: 18:23

Oh, well, so it's not a now. You get into there's this class of of I don't even want to call them bicycles. There was, I think there's a company called Super 77. I believe I believe they're actually now out of business because of uh lawsuits. Lawsuits. Um and it they were essentially motorcycles that they would put pedals on so that they could skirt around regulations and call it an e-bike. And a lot of and a lot of e-bikes that don't have these branded motors or these by by these um by like Shimano and Bosch, who do all sorts of research and development and engineering into their motors and so forth, they have restrictions. If you try to tinker, in fact, Shimano has one thing. If you try to go in and tinker with it and make the and and get rid of the speed limit, oh okay, uh, it it bricks the motor. You have a dead bike.

SPEAKER_01: 19:25

Good job, Shimano.

SPEAKER_00: 19:27

But a lot of just generic hub motors, you can defeat those speed limitations, okay, and you can boost the wattage of the of and so forth. So uh that's where you can get these bikes that can go 40, 50 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_02: 19:43

And you added something too, so I have a Surly um commuter bike that was not an e bike, right? But you added a powered hub to it called the switch, the switch, yeah. And is that the equivalent of a class?

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

One because there's no pedal assist. Yes. It has a uh it has a sensor, so it only it only the motor only kicks in when you're pedaling. Yep. You can change the boost level, yep, and then the motor uh stops adding boost after 20 miles per hour. And and you're right, a lot of these companies will not want to push up against that speed restriction, so they might cut out at around 18.

SPEAKER_02: 20:29

The Scott was 19, definitely. The step through that I had it, I don't I definitely never saw it hit 20 unless I was actively pushing it into a 20 mile. It was not helping me get there. I mean, there's a lot of reasons e-mountain bikes are awesome, right? There's a lot of reasons to ride one.

SPEAKER_00: 20:50

So, I mean e like commuter bikes, love. Love, love, love. Yeah, they're awesome, they're awesome. E-mountain bikes, yeah, this is where my this is where my feelings completely change.

SPEAKER_02: 21:02

Oh, I well completely change because I have definitely ridden behind people on an e-bike and thought they needed that bike. I didn't. We had a great ride. Right. I have a friend who had some issues with her foot. She is on an e-mountain bike. Yeah, it's not the existence of them.

SPEAKER_00: 21:29

Yeah. It is the amount of people who do not need one getting one.

SPEAKER_02: 21:35

I think right. So let's talk about some of the concerns people have. Let's break them down. And we're gonna be this is like science versus, so we're not gonna bring our bias into this, right? So one of the concerns people have is that they ruin the trails.

SPEAKER_00: 21:51

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:55

I think initially that was because they were heavy or they were too fast or takeoff.

SPEAKER_00: 22:02

They're still heavy. I think there were there were I think some of this is the throttle, the class twos, the throttles. Yes. And it's just like a motorcycle. You can then spin out that that rear wheel and and damage the trail that way.

SPEAKER_02: 22:16

But most of the trails around us, it's class one only. I don't think class twos are if they're allowed, but how do you some of this how do you police it? Yeah, you exactly. Right. Unless somebody chases you.

SPEAKER_00: 22:26

Allowed, yes, but that doesn't mean anybody is going to obey that that restriction.

SPEAKER_02: 22:34

Unless they're chased down by somebody. Right. But it turns out that the weight is not so much the issue. I guess the concern is more that people can ride for longer. And so they're on, so we're gonna have heavier trail usage.

SPEAKER_00: 22:54

You know, you so you brought this up the other day.

SPEAKER_02: 22:56

I I didn't bring it up as much as I learned about it on Science Direct.

SPEAKER_00: 23:00

Well, yeah, okay. So, and this is something I hadn't really thought about. And then when you told me about this, I said, Oh, that makes complete sense. You have more people who wouldn't otherwise go as far out into the trails that they would have. Right. Now they're on an e-bike and now they're riding more miles on the trails, going further into the trail system than they than they would have. And that is leading to a much greater trail impact than we had seen in the past. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 23:37

I mean, IMBA had a study in 2015 that said concluded class one e-bikes are not likely to have any more impact than traditional mountain bikes or other trail users. Yeah, I think but increased trail uses and population growth in general will serve as a challenge to resources that we all must contend with.

SPEAKER_00: 23:56

So And I think in 2015, I think it was a little too early. I think that there wasn't enough on the ground observation yet to see those are a few years ago. Yeah, real life um situations. Right. Um, and and you know, I'm already seeing this. So I think we might have talked about this in the past, Strava lines, where if you have a windy, twisty trail that all of a sudden not all of a sudden, but over time a couple people start going straight instead of that zigzag around a tree, they start going straight. Right. And it was used to be called Strava lines because they were looking. Strava doesn't pick up that difference between zigging around.

SPEAKER_02: 24:37

Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't say, oh, you fell off, you fell off the course.

SPEAKER_00: 24:42

No, no, you're still right. That's the the GPS is not accurate enough for that. So they gained a couple seconds to sort of take try to get the king of the mountain and so forth. And so these sort of straightened trails formed in a few places where they could. Okay. And but now I'm seeing in places where that just hasn't happened, all of a sudden I'm seeing that happening where I believe this is now from e-mountain bikes. And I believe it's because they're heavy and they're powered, and I believe that in some cases they're just they're pushing, yes, and it's especially more evident on some descents where you'd have this sort of twisty technical descent, and honestly, if I I can't I can't say for certain because I haven't ridden a very heavy e-mountain bike down these sections, but I am now seeing new straightened lines forming that haven't formed in decades in some cases, and all of a sudden they're starting to, and I believe it's because e-mountain bikes are starting to just smash their way down.

SPEAKER_02: 25:56

There is concern, and we're gonna talk about group rides next. Um, there is concern that some of these bikes are so heavy that the people riding them cannot handle them. And I don't necessarily even mean in the capacity that you're talking about it. Can they get them off their car? Can they get them over log? Not like can they carry them over the log? Because they're very, very heavy. Right. I mean, I'm at I'm at the point where I'm trying to get my bikes lighter.

SPEAKER_00: 26:28

Yeah, we have tight signal signal track in in our area, and in some cases, very dense brush. And when a tree falls across the trail, I mean, in some cases, like a huge, let's say a huge tree. Not a foot or two. Like that, that sort of that you can't go under, you have to go over the three, four feet. Yes, right? Yeah, and there's no way around. Right. Right, not without really bushwhacking, and in some cases of the thorns and and so forth like that. So you just have to lift your bike up and over. Yeah. Well, yeah, you need to be able to lift your e-bike up basically as high as your head, and then down over the back side of another tree. If you can't do that, you need to that's that's not appropriate for around here.

SPEAKER_02: 27:14

That might not be the right e-bike for you. Are they? I mean, they're not all the same. You should, just like any other bike, test it for these different things. But you probably wouldn't. I know that I would not necessarily think while buying a bike, I wonder if I can lift this over something.

SPEAKER_03: 27:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 27:33

But yeah, and and I also this is also on my on my plan list this year, is is sort of if we can find some to test ride at some of the our our events because we also have a lot of technical rock features around here where you really have to oh, you have to get your bike up some serious rock outcrops. Yep. And I'm interested to see how it's well that's and it's not power, it it's technique, it's finesse. Some of it's a half stroke of power and then more pushing, and then a half stroke of power. And and how is it gonna be with a bike that's three times the the weight of my current bike?

SPEAKER_02: 28:12

There are definitely people I've ridden with on e-bikes that they're getting up stuff they just wouldn't have had the power to get up. And again, in terms of straight climbs. Straight climbs, I totally see it. Yeah, but you're right. There's gonna be no, we should we should definitely we're signed up for Flow State. Uh they had demo bikes last year. I mean we can try the Turbo Levo. Yeah, absolutely should because it's easy to be judgy.

SPEAKER_00: 28:46

I mean, I've ridden these things, but I think it's oh absolutely, but I I need to get them more into the technical trails than I have before.

SPEAKER_02: 28:57

I rode an E mountain bike at a jam fundo dinner. They had one in the field, and we could just like toodle around with the bigger. Oh my gosh, at that dinner I do. Yeah, I just remember like talk about a memory. Um, but we're still talking, what, 10 years ago, maybe more. So now let's get to the really tricky part. Are e-bikes ruining the vibe of group rides. And there was another article. This one was from cyclingweekly.com. It was the title was e-bikes are not the enemy, why e-bikes deserve a place on group rides and bike races. I'm gonna leave that one, bike races alone. So, what they said is some argue that e-bikes could disrupt group rides by encouraging riders to charge ahead. While this concern is valid, per for performance-oriented rides, most group rides are about building community, exploring, and enjoying the ride. E-bikes can help equalize the effort level within group rides, making it possible for mixed ability groups to ride together without the pressure of keeping pace or fear of holding others back. Rather than excluding e-bikes, we should encourage their participation by setting clear community expectations and recognizing them as a valuable tool. And here's the thing I don't disagree with them.

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

I like that last sentence there.

SPEAKER_02: 30:22

Right. The problem we're running into now. So we've all been on e- we've all been on mountain bike rides where someone on an e-bike gets to the bottom of a hill and just goes slamming past you, and you just kind of go, ugh, e-bike. And maybe a little jealous, maybe a little. But for the most for the most part, when I have gone on group rides with e-bike riders, I have not had any significant problems. I really haven't. They have been polite. We talked about um uh flow state last year, right? People would just be behind us. I haven't had a lot of people pushing me too far. There are a couple of etiquette things I think that happen because they forget they're on an e-bike. My favorite is probably the favorite, is the they stop in the middle of a hill, a climb. Yes, and they forget that they can start wherever, but but they jam up everybody else.

SPEAKER_03: 31:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 31:28

And I can't necessarily start in the middle of a hill because I'm not on an e-bike. So that's kind of a remember the bike you're on. The challenge is is it starting to feel like are people buying e-bikes because other people have e-bikes and we're gonna end up in the minority? I feel like that's happening a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 31:53

A lot. I mean I feel I feel like that's the that's the trend that's happening. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 31:59

Like it hasn't happened a lot. I've been on a couple of group rides locally that do have a pretty big e-bike contingent.

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

I mean people going in. I think I think people are now uh are are bike, I think it's happening a lot that people are bike shopping saying, Oh, maybe I'll get an e-bike instead because this guy and this guy and this guy's like what is the price difference?

SPEAKER_02: 32:22

Let's talk say we sell Scott and what is the difference between say I don't even know if these are bikes that uh is there a Scott Contess uh genius e-bike? Like what is the e-bike? Oh, it's the voltage, the volt. What do they call the Scott e-bike? Scott E mountain bike.

SPEAKER_00: 32:44

Oh, there's a there's a couple different names. So we're not really gonna get into that. But it they are they are a few thousand more. Well, let's say, let's say one to three thousand more than the equivalent non-e-bike.

SPEAKER_02: 32:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:56

So it's not It's a lot of money. It's not a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_00: 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 33:00

My other concern is are we making it that much harder to enter the sport if e-bikes are the de facto bike?

SPEAKER_00: 33:10

I think so. Right? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 33:12

And then what do we do about children? So all the parents are gonna be e-bikes and the kids are gonna be on they're already on the heaviest bikes on the hill.

SPEAKER_00: 33:22

Yeah, and and you know when I do get I do get kids stopping by on their Amazon e-bikes often, you know, and that scare they do. It's a little bit it's a little disappointing that that this, you know, 12-year-old has this sort of e-bike. Um that it doesn't for just for just bopping around town.

SPEAKER_02: 33:45

It doesn't disappoint me. They worry me because I've seen too many I've been seen too many stories of kids getting hurt on e-bikes because they're moving faster than they should be. I don't know if the helmets are rated for e-bike use, right?

SPEAKER_00: 33:59

Like the impacts will now become greater because the speed is greater.

SPEAKER_02: 34:03

So I have concerns about that, and I have concerns that these are inexpensive e-bikes with bad batteries, they're gonna burn down their house. Those are the three things.

SPEAKER_00: 34:10

Well, the my my thing is always the brakes. The brakes are never up to um they're not good enough for a pedal bike, let alone an e-bike. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:21

This is where I go back to why it feels so familiar to my conversations about AI, because my concerns about AI is that, for example, we're not hiring entry-level computer programmers because AI is gonna do it. Yep. Which means we don't have anyone who's learning the fundamentals who then in the future will be the supervisors. Right. I we have AI taking the place of writers and artists. And so at some point, where are gonna be the writers and the artists? I have real concerns. And then, and we've reached a point now where people will say, Oh, well, you know, I asked AI, and this is what they told me, or this is what they wrote. And I thought, when, when did we get proud of that? When did we get proud of not doing the work ourselves? Right. And this is why I guess this conversation makes me a little grumpy because it feels the same for bikes, right? We're we're not, we're get, we're gutting, we're gonna gut the entry-level bike market. We're gonna make it that much harder for people to get into mountain big biking beakers.

SPEAKER_00: 35:34

A bike is now an e-bike almost. Right, which is why I hate that headline.

SPEAKER_02: 35:38

Should we all submit to our e-mountain bike future? Of course we shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00: 35:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 35:43

Of course we should not.

SPEAKER_00: 35:44

Part of and it's not only that the bike costs more. I I just read an article um in right before we we started recording about bike shops, and it was for it was written for bike shops in terms of embracing the e-bike service and all the stuff you can do. And let me tell you, you know, and and they're they're more complicated and so forth, but I think people need to be prepared that your e-bike is now gonna almost be like a car with car-like repair bills and more frequent servicing because of the wear that happens on the chain and the brake pads and so forth. Right. So um, it is not only the cost of the bike itself, it is significantly higher repair bills.

SPEAKER_02: 36:35

Right. And I I really don't want to leave this on a total crapping on e-mountain bikes. I do believe there are wonderful use cases for e-mountain bikes. I have seen them. Yes, I have friends who are able to ride areas they haven't been able to ride, they are able to keep up with their spouses, they're able to overcome injury, they are able to access areas that maybe they couldn't. There is a downside to that in that you could potentially get yourself into a place you shouldn't be as a rider. But I really don't want to leave this as we hate e-mountain bikes.

SPEAKER_00: 37:17

Not at all.

SPEAKER_02: 37:18

We don't. I hate the idea that they are going to become the defect factor.

SPEAKER_00: 37:26

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_02: 37:27

I'm already grumpy.

SPEAKER_00: 37:29

They and they shouldn't because the person that they are ideal for is not the common person. And I not I should say not, yeah, not the average writer. Yeah, every the everyday writer.

SPEAKER_02: 37:42

Still grumpy. You got me a new dropper post, and it needs a battery, and that makes me a little grumpy because if the battery dies or something, like I I'm I'm trying to go more analog.

SPEAKER_00: 37:53

Well, I am all in on I am all in on the on the electronic shifting.

SPEAKER_02: 37:59

I do like it, I love it, but I joke every time, every time we don't have a battery, or a battery dies, you're like, bikes used to be so simple. Just got on the bloody bike and it went, right?

SPEAKER_00: 38:13

I mean, remember I see just as many issues with cable actuated things. I and I see more cable actuated problems than than electronic.

SPEAKER_02: 38:23

I believe that to be true, but still every now and then I just kind of want to say, I want a bike that will work if there's a zombie apocalypse and I have no more power left. Right. That's why I think we need all need to at least have a bike that'll do that. Because the other thing is I was reading on my mountain bike ladies group, there was someone, and she said she was on her e-bike and her e-mountain bike and she was climbing. I can't think of what the name it was, and it just stopped. It just stopped, and now she's in the middle of a climb, no battery, no movement. The thing is too bloody heavy for her to go anywhere. I think she was able to, as she said, do a Fonzie and reboot it uh and get it back going, but I thought, since it's I can't don't want that happening to me. If anything fails, I want it to be my legs.

SPEAKER_00: 39:14

Should we talk about just a little bit more about um etiquette? No, the the group rides. The mixed group rides.

SPEAKER_02: 39:22

I think we should talk about, I think we should talk about, let's say we're gonna do mixed group rides. We don't want to separate. I don't want to reach a point where we're saying it might happen.

SPEAKER_00: 39:33

Oh, it might happen.

SPEAKER_02: 39:34

It might happen, right? This is women's ride for analog bikes. I fine. But let's say for now we're gonna mix them. What are some ways that e mountain bikers and mountain bikers can get along and ride together nicely?

SPEAKER_00: 39:49

So I think that that one part you read um from that article is so rather than excluding e bikes, we should encourage their participation by setting clear community expectations. Expectations and I think that right there, the clear community expectations, a a sort of general um knowledge among all the riders of what the etiquette is between e mountain bikers and analog, right?

SPEAKER_02: 40:15

So, what would be some of your expectations? What would you want to communicate?

SPEAKER_00: 40:19

Don't what ride up right up my butt.

SPEAKER_02: 40:23

Don't ride up my butt.

SPEAKER_00: 40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:24

You're still under the I can still I am still the the rider in front, which means I am still I still have the right of way, which means I may stop unexpectedly. And so that's just general etiquette. I mean that's e-bike etiquette. It's not just e-bike.

SPEAKER_00: 40:43

That's that is general etiquette. Yeah, that is general etiquette. But you know, and then but do regular riders have do we need to have an unrealistic expectation about e-mountain bikers because of their issues? And I and I say this almost almost like okay, let's say like there's uh there's a a really difficult climb on the Friday morning ride. Okay. That I do. And and it's not not everybody's gonna make it. I don't even make it every single time. Okay, it is it is how wet is it out, um, which line did I take, that kind of thing. And if you go up and you're and you're climbing, and it is technical and very, very steep, and you stop, you know, you you you're not gonna make it. You put the foot down, you but but there's there's people behind you. Yes, you need to pull that bike off the trail immediately so you do not wreck the line. Right? So at least they have a gap, they have the shot at to give each other space and grace. I don't think pulling off, you know, sometimes pulling your e-mountain bike off the trail, like literally lifting it and yanking it off the trail in in a second, is that that's not as easy, but should we have that expectation that an e-mountain biker can do?

SPEAKER_02: 41:59

I'm gonna say yes, we should. And that I think is where we get into the bike itself and making sure that you can move your bike.

SPEAKER_03: 42:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:07

Because that, again, that's just etiquette. Like I'm gonna get stuck. Say I get stuck on that climb.

SPEAKER_00: 42:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 42:14

I'm gonna get out of the way as quickly as possible. I'm not gonna go, uh, I don't have to. The guy behind me's got an e-bike, he's gonna make it up no matter what. That would be rude.

SPEAKER_00: 42:23

Oh, this would be this is so technical that the e-bike is uh is but it's not a I'm just saying, but I wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02: 42:31

I wouldn't say, like you talked about on a past show, someone climbing behind you, and you said, Well, I'm just gonna I'm gonna pull and let them pass because they're just doing heroes' work here. Yeah. And then when he passed, you said, Oh, it's an e-bike. I don't think the bike matters in etiquette from the standpoint of you probably shouldn't have stopped climbing. You should keep climbing, regardless of who's behind you. And then as always, it is the person behind you, their responsibility to tell you they're there and to make the pass when it's safe, regardless of bicycle. And so I think the same can be said for all of these things, right? The rules aren't any different, but it is on all of us, regardless of type of bike, that we'd be able to get that thing out of the way. So that's why you want to make sure your bike's not too big, your bike's not too heavy. I didn't say e-bike, your bike has to fit you, your bike has to be something you can manipulate, you want to be able to get it on your own car, right? You want to be able to e-bike or because there's some hella heavy mountain bikes.

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

Oh, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02: 43:41

And you can have someone who ends up with a bike that's too heavy for that, regardless of whether it's an e-bike.

SPEAKER_00: 43:48

Right. So Yeah, there, I mean, there's some 60, 70 pound e-mountain bikes, and they're also 25, 30 pounds.

SPEAKER_02: 43:57

Yeah, I mean, let me say, I'm sure that there's someone out there who has had a ride with e-bikes where the rider is riding up their ass, giving them trouble, heckling them. We just haven't had that situation. No. And I would be sh so obviously that would not be that would not be acceptable. But it also would be the same as when I do the Friday night ride and there's a whole group ahead of me, and you're pulling away, and I'm just making my way up the hill, and I always say to the guys, pass me if you can, this is the pace I'm this is the pace I'm going. And they're always very polite. It would be the challenge is gonna be when you become the minority as the analog writer. Yeah. And say you're in that scenario I just said, and everybody's like, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, past you.

SPEAKER_00: 44:51

Right. And a man, yeah, and especially if if there's not a lot of technical that can somewhat level the playing field, yeah. Then yes, you're right, because then now all of a sudden, if you're the minority, uh there they could be taking off on you. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 45:08

Um Yeah, the articles I read about And now they're waiting for you.

SPEAKER_00: 45:11

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 45:12

The articles I read about Etiquette too with e-bikes were like, make sure your battery's charged. Yep, you should do that. But again, I should make my shifter batteries charged. How many times have we gone out and that hasn't been charged? Um we talked about remembering you do have a slight advantage. So again, if you're gonna stop on a hill you because you can restart, right, maybe get out of the way because the next people can't. But I don't I actually don't think it's that complicated.

SPEAKER_00: 45:46

From what I hear from most people, they don't like the mixed like group rides. Really? Yeah. Yeah. The vibe seems to be off. So I think that is something that we I'm gonna pay a little more attention to.

SPEAKER_02: 46:03

I think we have to pay attention to it. I have not, I've been on rides with a lot. I didn't let me say, anytime I've been on a ride where I didn't think the vibe was great, it wasn't because of the bicycles.

SPEAKER_00: 46:16

No, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:17

It had nothing to do with the bikes.

SPEAKER_00: 46:19

Well, the riders are the vibe, but you you're you're right.

SPEAKER_02: 46:22

But it wasn't, as I said, I've I've ridden with many e-mountain bikers. I think some of it is in our own heads. And if you're going to be an analog rider, a contrarian, you gotta lean into that, my friend. Right? This is who I am. This is the bike I ride. Over on LinkedIn, I am the AI curmudgeon.

SPEAKER_03: 46:49

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02: 46:50

I ran into a professional last week, very smart guy, older gentleman, and he said to me, So, Kristen, using a lot of AI at work. And I thought, oh, you are not following me on LinkedIn. So I think like all things it has its place, but some of this is is our own stuff. Yeah. Like as an analog writer, you kind of have to. You gotta just, this is my choice, and I'm not gonna be bullied. Right. I'm not gonna be bullied by stupid articles like that. Because it's the industry. Let me just say that too. It's not the riders, it's the industry. I I feel more pressure from the industry to deal with e-bikes than I do from any individual rider.

SPEAKER_00: 47:37

Part of the you're you're part of this with the industry is it's another different new bike to sell. And we quickly mentioned uh uh a few weeks ago about the 32-inch wheels, and we're gonna revisit that in a coming episode. Um but it's it just comes down to industry something different to sell.

SPEAKER_02: 48:04

Shiny things syndrome. We would love to know what you think. That's what I'm gonna say. Yes. I would love to know what people think. I would like your your good rides, your rides where maybe the vibe was off. What do you think the rules should be? Are e-bikes the future and I'm just yelling into the wind again?

SPEAKER_00: 48:27

Yeah, I really want to know what people think about this. So you can right now. And and I'm gonna say my opinions are are gonna, I think, constantly change and evolve with this.

SPEAKER_02: 48:37

Yeah.

unknown: 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:38

Yeah, absolutely. So you can email us info at stevethebike guy.com, you can leave a comment, you can even send a text message through our um podcasting apps, which is crazy. So I I would like to know. And then I think we need to get on some. Great. Set up some demos. All right, we're back. Maybe someday we'll have like commercials and stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 49:04

We should put in commercials. Bougie.

SPEAKER_02: 49:09

All right, you have a scene while scrolling.

SPEAKER_00: 49:12

I do, yes. I have a I saw a link to an article about cross-chaining, um, which was on road.cc. And so I thought, you know what, that's actually a really good topic to just uh touch upon. So cross-chaining, just to recap that. Recap or to explain it, explain it is uh when you are in now. This is with a two-by, so you have uh well, two or three chain rings up front. And so you would say be in your big ring up front and your big cogs in the back. So the chain is is forced to be at an angle from the front chain ring um to the front.

SPEAKER_02: 49:56

Oh, at its most, like at its most extreme.

SPEAKER_00: 50:00

Or in the small chain ring in the front and the small cogs in the back. Okay. Yep. That is cross-chaining, and it has forever been considered bad. Right? And this article is the article's titled, Is Cross Chaining Really That Bad? Find out what Shimano and Sram have to say.

SPEAKER_01: 50:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 50:20

So I will just say my own personal thought for the past let's start with decades here, okay, is that no.

SPEAKER_00: 50:30

Like, run it, like if you have it, run it. There's an exception to this, and that is the small chain ring up front and the small cogs in the back. And the only reason for that is that it's less efficient.

SPEAKER_01: 50:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 50:45

Okay, because the tighter, the tighter the chain has the tighter, the smaller, the smaller the cogs or the smaller the chain rings, the tighter the chain has to go around it. The tighter, like the the links have to roll across each other more. Yeah. And so therefore, there's more friction there, so it's less efficient. And also because most front derailleurs don't have the capacity to handle that, and so there's a little bit of rub there. So it's more of an annoyance.

SPEAKER_02: 51:09

Before you get into what Shimano and Sram say, um, why what is the conventional wisdom on why it was why it's bad?

SPEAKER_00: 51:20

Oh, just because the chain is not at its its optimal uh angle, it is uh wearing out your chain more, it's wearing out your your chain rings harder, it's you know, it's wearing out this was always a thing. I mean, this has been around since the 60s, 70s type of situation. Don't cross chain, don't cross chain, it's bad. Never never be in that gear. Oh no, there would be articles about never, just never be in that gear and and so forth.

SPEAKER_02: 51:49

Well, I think you can probably guess what I think of that because anytime you would say to me, Well, if I was having trouble with something, you'd be like, Well, just don't shift into that gear. I'm like, I want to use all of them and I don't want to think about it. Right. That was always my that's that's generally my thing. If you guys didn't want me to use them, you shouldn't have given them to me.

SPEAKER_00: 52:09

That is that was sort of a little bit of the philosophy behind my thought, but at the same time, it's also just you're not doing all that much difference to not use that key.

SPEAKER_02: 52:23

Like you would have to stay in that cross-chained position for miles for it to make any kind of Yes. I mean, I guess if you live somewhere flat, that could happen. But since I cha I shift like it's going out of business.

SPEAKER_00: 52:40

And let's be clear, like if you have a one-by, right? Yes, you still have can have extreme chain angles between that single front chain ring and your cogs in the back. But there is no such thing as cross chaining on a one-by. You're supposed to use every collic in the back.

SPEAKER_02: 52:55

You say that, but bike I did look this up before we got because I thought might as well know a little something. And bike radar just last month posted an article. Cross-chaining is a common cycling mistake, and this is why you should avoid it. See, and they actually said that you can cross-chain a one by.

SPEAKER_00: 53:20

Well, in this article, SRAM says, Oh, like SRAM says there is no cross-chaining on one by.

SPEAKER_02: 53:25

Yeah. Well, SRAM said there's literally no such thing as cross-chaining with a one by, but by graders radar's like, I mean, there kind of is though, because you don't want to be I basically they're saying don't use the extremes of your cassette if you have a one-by. Like, how would you not you have to?

SPEAKER_00: 53:46

That is the whole point of a one-by. Yes. Yeah. So this has always been my philosophy. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_02: 53:57

Because this article did go. However, an optimum chain line for drive drivetrain efficiency still exists for one buy. Using the cogs towards the middle of this cassette, which results in a straighter chain line, is more efficient and quieter. I put it for the whole cassette. It's it's not for all of them.

SPEAKER_00: 54:16

It's not more efficient and quieter. It is. But so and and and we're talking, and quieter is uh we're talking about uh an imperceptible difference in a lot of cases.

SPEAKER_02: 54:29

This is why cycling can seem so intimidating. Yeah when people are like, oh, but by the way, don't do this and this, don't do this and this. The other thing is I don't always know what gear I'm in until my little garment says, oh, you're out.

unknown: 54:49

Boop.

SPEAKER_00: 54:50

Oh, all done. I do like the I do like the double, the double beep you get when you when you've hit your loggers cog in the back. Yeah, you have no more gears. This is the easiest.

SPEAKER_02: 54:58

Obviously, if you have if you don't have electronic shifting, you haven't synced your garment. But for the most part, when I had a road bike, I probably knew what gear I was in in the front. But most of the time, I probably could not tell you what gear. Because you were riding by feel, you weren't riding, it didn't matter. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00: 55:19

So then I wouldn't necessarily, whoop, can't go one more because I might cross-chain the the the road electronic group sets with a with a double crank, they don't even let you go into the small cogs in the back when you're in a small chain ring in the front. And and that's really it's it's really not about cross-chaining, it's more about their design the way they had to design them. It was easier to make it so there was no chain rub on the front derailer that way.

SPEAKER_02: 55:47

It's just so funny. It's just, you know, give give me one more thing to be paranoid about. That's that I think is largely the issue in cycling and why it can come across as intimidating because well, how how tall are your socks and what color are your shoes? And can you wear that color jersey and make sure you don't cross-chain? Right. Yep. This industry. I can't even that is amazing. Okay, speaking of chains, we got a question through the Instagram from our friend Angela about cleaning. So, in addition to all the stuff we talked about with cleaning your bikes, I did a little story on your Instagram yesterday about cleaning the bike. And I did a quick, I was mostly doing it for our mountain bike team because I knew their bikes were probably gross. So I thought I'll just do a very quick story of the like six steps that I take to clean my bike so that I can send it to the parents. And one of them was about making sure the chain was very dry and that we lubed it to make sure that we prevent rust. And Angela responded, What do I do about a chain that has a little bit of rust on it? So, and I'm guessing it's because she had a bike, she hasn't ridden it for a little bit. Yep. So it's been in the garage. Yep. It's not rusted. Right. It's brown. It's just, you know, sometimes you get a little bit of rust on it. What do I do about that? So can I still use that chain?

SPEAKER_00: 57:17

Yeah, you you this is where it is without seeing the chain, it's hard to say what is your definition of a little bit of rust. That's true. But there can be slight rust spots, uh, little blotches and so forth. And you're like, oh, it's starting to rust, right?

SPEAKER_02: 57:33

Let's presume majority silver.

SPEAKER_00: 57:35

Yeah, if you can you can use a uh degreaser on that chain, and uh, and a lot of that will just kick off that very, very surface rust. Okay. Okay. And then and then lube it. Usually I like to lube it with a wet lube if there's a little bit of rust on there now. Okay. Okay. Um, and and then just sort of test it and spin it and see if it's smooth and see if make sure there's no kinked links, which will usually show up um as a as a sort of a little skip or a little pop or something as it's coming around.

SPEAKER_02: 58:10

See, how do you know if the chain is too rusty?

SPEAKER_00: 58:13

Yeah, I mean, well Is it not flexy? Is it not like what would be a it's a well on that far extreme of being rusted, you basically have links that will not pivot anymore. Right. Right. That's that is the like a fully rusted chain. But if if you are what you might think is a little rusty, right, and I do get customers like this, but the rust has really started have started to get down into the rollers and so forth, okay. You will probably, if this is a 20-year-old hybrid that they use a few times a year and they ride down the wreck path, and they're and there's a little bit of and there's a little bit of rust that I kind of cleans up and so forth, but they're not really looking to spend a lot of money, and I and I clean it up and I put lube on it, and it is running smooth, yep, they're fine. All right. Right. So, you know, given their expectations of the cost of the service and what they're gonna use the bike for and so forth, that's fine. But I would never do the same thing on an enthusiast bike, right? There's a point of their chain with a little bit of rust where it's like, yeah, that's just we gotta change that. Okay, so let's say it's a I don't know, a gravel bike that was used the year before, but because of various reasons, hasn't been really if you clean up that chain and you and you're you know you're running it through a rag with with degreaser, yep, and you know, you're you're really kind of uh um uh cleaning that chain with a lot of bunch of pressure, right? You're you know so you're really scrubbing that chain. If then you say, Oh, look, yeah, that looks pretty good. I really don't see any rust, you're probably fine.

SPEAKER_02: 59:54

Should you take it off the bike for that degreasing, or can you so no

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:00

Okay. You can, but here's the reason I'm saying no, is that most chains now use a quick link. And that quick link. That quick link is not reusable. So if you want to take it off to get it clean off the bike, and you can sort of and some people then soak their chain and that so forth. That's great, but just know you need to get a new quick. Yeah, you need a new quick link when you put it on. What's the worst that happens if you unless you have a reusable one byte KMC or whipperman?

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:30

What's the worst that can happen if you use a chain that's slightly too rusty?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:36

Oh, it's just gonna skip. It's gonna skip. It's just gonna skip. It's just not gonna perform great then you'll get it. It's gonna be noisy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:42

All your bike mechanic and get in the chain.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:44

It'll be noisy and it could skip. Because you have you'll have tight links. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yep, shifting issues and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:51

Well, there you go. Try your chain, people.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:54

But generally, if you clean it and it's and that and then you really don't see that rust anymore, you're probably fine.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:00

Is a rusty chain inevitable if you put your bike in the basement for an extended period?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:10

Yeah, but again I mean, can you just slather goo on it to keep it from you could like over Yeah, if you if you really kind of coated it in an oil that will not evaporate, so these would be a lot of wet loops, which are basically oils. Okay. And then you put it somewhere where it's gonna be stored for a long time and where it's say it's humid. Yes. Then it should be okay. Okay. But this is what catches a lot of people off guard is that basements and garages and sheds can be very humid. Then a and then so so they're just putting their bike in there and then sometimes they don't touch it for a couple years, and then well, why did my chain rust? I was kept inside.

unknown: 1:01:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:54

I mean, that's why they the chains are are the most uh susceptible to rusting on a peak part of a bike. It is the most sort of bare steel, if you will, even though they're theoretically technically coated with different surface treatments and so forth.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:10

So it's not that unusual that the chain is kind of the first thing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:14

Yeah. Yeah. That and then a few bolt heads. Okay. But inside the inside the head, which is more cosmetic than anything.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:23

All right. Yep. Well, I think that's what all we have for this episode of Cycling Together. Cycling Together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in eastern Massachusetts and Sundon Marketing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:38

If you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend. Um, and for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic, suggestion, please visit cyclingtogether.bike. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at Steve the Bike Guy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:53

Thank you for joining the ride. Okay, we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:56

Technical uh documentation on these software hell of an uh.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:03

It was.