15. How Jackie Started Cycling

Before Jackie bought a new mountain bike in 2021, the last time she had ridden a bicycle was when she was a teenager. 

But as Hale Education's Director of Camp and Community Programs worked with the organization's growing mountain bike community, she soon found herself taking up a new hobby. A few years and three bikes later, Jackie has grown as a rider, leader and ride organizer, using her platform and personal experience to create and cultivate experiences designed to welcome more girls and women to the sport.

On this episode, Jackie joins Kristin to share her development and discoveries as she started riding and what her goals are for the future. They also discuss her passion project, Everwild, a day of clinics and rides for women which is held at Hale on International Women's Mountain Bike Day.

Steve and Kristin wrap up the episode discussing where people can find good quality information and reviews about bikes and equipment, and what it means when we say shift "up" or "down."

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:04

This is Kristen.

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

And I'm Steve, and you were listening to Cycling Together, a show all about bikes riding and riding together.

SPEAKER_01: 0:11

So we just had a meeting of the ride leaders of our women's ride group.

SPEAKER_00: 0:17

Yeah, you're so excited to get this going for the summer, right? We're all excited for summer since it snowed yesterday here in April.

SPEAKER_01: 0:24

Yes, we're heading into our fourth year with the STBG Women's Mountain Bike Ride Series. And this year, the women who I have been slowly building a small cohort of leaders and sweeps asked for a planning session. I realized what they really wanted to do was just hang out with each other. Yeah. Which I totally get. So that's what we did today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:46

And yeah, good day for that on a rainy, cold Sunday.

SPEAKER_01: 0:51

Yeah, exactly. So it was a good day for it. Um, we will do a whole show about the ride series and about planning rides, but it was nice because we were talking about our rides, which are every other week for three months in the summer. We're gonna do some field trips to some other local ride spots. We're talking about a couple weekends away. So I am getting excited for a summer of epic riding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of our ride leaders joined us before she came early, Jackie. And she and I sat down to talk about how she started riding. She's a very recent mountain biker, cyclist. And so that's what today's show is is the interview I did with Jackie.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36

Oh, I can't wait to hear it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37

All right, so let's take a break and I will come back with Jackie. I'm here with Jackie Ross, who let's see if I get this right. You are director, camp and community programs at Hale Education in Westwood.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48

Yes, I am. That looks right. Look at me using the LinkedIn. Glad it's updated.

SPEAKER_01: 1:52

Welcome to our podcast studio. You are the first.

SPEAKER_03: 1:55

Thank you for having me. I didn't realize I was number one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58

Yeah, number one victim. I mean guest to our show. So we are gonna be talking today about how you started cycling, which I'm really excited for. But let's take a little step back on how we met. Because I think that even leads to how you started riding, right? So you started again, psych stalking. You started at Hale in 2019. The tail end. Tail end of twale end of 2019. So you'd only been there a couple months when the pandemic.

SPEAKER_03: 2:28

Oh my gosh. Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 2:29

Okay. And then a big thing happened. Yeah, big, yeah, a big thing happened at Hale. And then in late 2020, you got promoted. Yes. Right? Yeah. How did I do, right? To director of camper camp and community programs. And then in 2021, Sophie Brandt enters the scene joining what I just realized recently was just a program area at the camp, right? Mountain biking. She was joining mountain biking.

SPEAKER_03: 2:57

Yeah, she was technically a staff member of Hale Daycamp. Okay. But was in our mountain biking program within Hale Day Camp. Okay. So that's where the camp was back in 2021.

SPEAKER_01: 3:07

Okay. And we will talk about Hale and all the mountain biking amazingness. But let's start with when you joined Hale, were you a biker, cyclist?

SPEAKER_03: 3:17

I was not. I think the last time I had been on a bike was in high school. And then I started working at Hale. And I originally was hired to do absolutely nothing with mountain biking. That's not what I was hired for. Okay. And then the pandemic happened, and we were like just figuring out all the things that we could do, were able to do within camp. And so then I was able to oversee all the camp programs and figure out how we could do it in a global pandemic. Okay. So I that was my first really toe into meeting some of our mountain biking camp staff and understanding what the heck mountain biking in camp actually looked like and didn't even know you could do that on the trails. Like was so oblivious.

SPEAKER_01: 4:00

Your your director at the time was a mountain biker, right? He has since retired, but Eric was a mountain biker.

SPEAKER_03: 4:06

Yeah, he is the reason mountain biking is part of camp at Hale.

SPEAKER_01: 4:10

Okay. So then fast forward to so when did you start? When did you decide it was time to get on a bike?

SPEAKER_03: 4:18

I decided, I was always so curious about it because not only was I overseeing the camp staff and the campers and you know, trying to develop curriculum for mountain biking that I didn't know anything about, uh, we also had a youth racing team, the wild ones at the time. And Eric so kindly was like, you know, you oversee the youth program, so you should also join in on their coaches' meetings and, you know, just keep like uh get a feel for what they're doing. I said, okay. So every Wednesday morning at eight o'clock, I'd hop on the Zoom with a whole bunch of really cool people that all they did was talk about mountain biking and racing. And I really just got to sit and absorb everything they were talking about. And I learned there was this thing called downhill versus cross country versus enduro, and like these were words. I didn't truly understand what they were. Um I'm convinced they've made up half of them. But that's fine, sure. And then there's like a whole language around it, and they all wore like flannels, and it was, you know, opening the door to this community and culture that I just wasn't aware of before. Yeah. And so really spending time with them and meeting some really cool people, I was like, well, maybe like I should just try it. And that wasn't until 2022 was when I actually bought my first bike and I bought a hardtail just because I I didn't know if I was actually gonna like it or not. Right. But I know I like to spend time in the woods and you know I like to be active outside, so I figured I'll try it and see what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_01: 5:45

I was gonna ask, you were you were fit. Like, do you did you run? You were runner.

SPEAKER_03: 5:50

Did you do the Boston Marathon? I did.

SPEAKER_01: 5:53

You did that as a as one of the fundraising people. Yeah, ran from Hale.

SPEAKER_03: 5:56

Yep, ran from Hale in 2023. Okay. Um, and did that was on their team, but I was a runner in high school, college, and have done like road racing since then. And then starting to work at Hale, I really got into trail running because there's 1,200 acres outside your office door. Right. Might as well go enjoy them. Right. Um, and just a bunch of coworkers were really interested in spending time in the woods. And so trail running was the first kind of woods-focused sport I got into.

SPEAKER_01: 6:21

Okay. So you got a hard tail. What were like before you started? What would you say were some of your maybe biggest questions about mountain biking or concerns or biggest concerns, I think, were like, how hurt am I gonna get?

SPEAKER_03: 6:33

Because I had fair hurttails. I also just didn't know like where can I ride, what is the right equipment to use? Because when you talk to people who are in mountain biking, like the opportunities are endless. Like the limit does not exist for bikes and gear and helmets and shoes and pedals. And yeah, like when I bought my bike, they were like, Oh, what kind of pedals do you want? I was like, It doesn't come with pedals. What do you mean? Yeah, I guess I want pedals, they seem like a good idea. What shoes do you wear? I don't know. So there are so many like basic questions that you didn't know about. And I was fortunate that my sister had been and my brother have been biking for okay, like a couple years before. So um, they were kind of a safe space to go and say, like, do you wanna could you take me for a ride somewhere and uh just see? And then other than that, I was really just myself going out and kind of figuring some things out on my own. But I liked it. I was like, oh, it's fast. Like I get to spend time in the woods, it's hard. Um, which I think when you get into like long distance endurance, you know, length sports, um, you appreciate the difficulty and the challenge of it. Yeah. So I think that was something that also I really liked about initially getting into it. Yep. Was there anything that surprised you when you first got into it? Probably like just how many opportunities and how many things there are. I always tell folks when I'm talking to them about like they want to start mountain biking. Yeah. I was like, once you open the door and just like peek around into the community, like it's a lot. It's a lot, but it's also exciting because there is so much to do. Yes, and you can do it all year if you really like get into it.

SPEAKER_01: 8:08

I I yes, I remember having that same discovery when I first started running. And I was like, if you're willing to run, there are people running all over the place doing all sorts of crazy things. And I you're right, I think it's the same on bikes. Like you can, there's just people doing group rides, races, endurance things, you know, that I had once you kind of figure that out how to find them, you start to realize, oh, there's so many things you can do, right? It's so fun.

SPEAKER_03: 8:39

I never even noticed how like bike racks on the back of vehicles. Like, I never like picked out mountain bikes that people were driving around with, like, and now I see them all the time, and I'm like, they must have been there before like 2023. But yes, absolutely. If your mind's not open to it, you just don't see it, and then you see a trail and you're like, I could ride this, like I, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

Makes me so happy. So, okay, so you started with a hardtail, you have upgraded, you upgraded since then. Yeah so when how long did it take you to jump? Not that it's a requirement, to jump from the hardtail to uh you went to a dual suspension.

SPEAKER_03: 9:13

Yes, that took about just one year. One year, yeah. I got my first bike like May 22 and like August 23, I got my first full suspension.

SPEAKER_01: 9:22

Did you look back and wish you had gotten something more, or do you still okay with the decision you made to get? Because it's always like I feel like as grown-ups, we have this moment where we have to eat, we have to decide. Like, is this am I gonna like it? So should I get something? And then you're like, oh, if I had just gotten that other thing, I'd be halfway there, you know. And I'm not saying the the hard tip, it was a wrong choice. I'm just curious as someone who bikes just arrive in my living room, right? Like, let's be clear. I don't have a lot of choices here. Someone's like, this is the bike you're getting, and I'm like, cool, thank y'all, thank you very much. But that level of pa buying, you know, that level of investment, I do think is the hardest thing about getting into this sport.

SPEAKER_03: 10:05

100%. And uh, because and especially when I bought my first bike, new bikes were really scarce because during the pandemic it was really hard to get a new bike because everyone discovered the outdoors again.

SPEAKER_01: 10:18

It was like being those people at church on Christmas who's like, Who are all of you? Like I do remember that during the pandemic. You'd be in the woods and you'd be like, Who are all these people?

SPEAKER_03: 10:27

Mm-hmm. How come they're showing up now? People walking down the street. It's like the street's been here the entire time. Yeah. Now they're just walking on it, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01: 10:35

It is fantastic. But I do remember that experience during the pandemic that like Steve and I would be in our local woods and be like, Who are all these people? Like, it's great. Yeah. Where have y'all been?

SPEAKER_03: 10:47

Yeah. So getting, you know, just into the that first hardtail, you know, it was an expensive bike for what, and again, like I have I didn't have a knowledge of how expensive bikes could get. Yes. Um, so for me it was, well, I want to buy a bike that is, you know, not just like an entry-level bike because I if I do enjoy it, I want to get my money's worth out of this bike. So was willing to spend a little bit more than just, you know, whatever was out there. And I appreciate it because my first season on it, you know, I didn't ride it a ton, like I will say. And every time I would ride with some folks, they're like, Oh, if you had a full suspension, it would be such a smoother ride. You know, I see like you're working hard over some of these things. If you had a full suspension, it'd be smoother. And so that also had me going, like, I really like this. And if I, you know, enhanced my bike experience with that, you know, would I bike more? And so I bought the full suspension and I biked a lot more. Uh, did you? Yeah, and it it made riding a lot easier, it was more fun, it was lighter, and it just made, you know, especially, you know, hail can be, you know, pretty techie and rocky and crunchy, and um, a lot of you know, places around where I ride are, so it's not just like smooth trails.

SPEAKER_01: 12:01

Continuing, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 12:03

It made it easier, more fun, and so I found myself just riding a lot more.

SPEAKER_01: 12:08

How did you decide on the bike that you decide? So you got a canyon. We're not a boat, we can talk brands. All good. Uh, you had a canyon, she's very pretty. How did you decide what bike to get? Like what kind of research did you do, or how did you how'd you come to the canyon?

SPEAKER_03: 12:24

Yeah, I think uh I definitely looked on different reviews. I wanted, I didn't need at the time, you know, a a bike that could do it all. Cause again, I was only really riding in my second like season, if you will, at the time I was looking to get a new bike. So I wanted something, one that I felt was like mostly affordable. Yeah. Um, you know, I set myself a budget. I said I'm not willing to go above, you know, this number. So then that kind of narrowed down the bikes that I was looking for. And so then I was just looking at reviews and talking to people online that were looking for bikes or just had bought a bike and you know, kind of figuring out why they bought that and and going from there. And the canyon at the time was, you know, one of the more affordable bikes. It was also a very pretty color. And so that definitely sold me. Hey, color matters.

SPEAKER_01: 13:16

If there's one thing I complain I have about current bike trends, it's the as one of our customers called it, the the trend towards looking like it was thrown in a fire, like just the carbon, like that carbon, black, gray. I'm not for it. I like pretty colors. I think you should think you should buy bikes that are pretty colors. Yeah, personally stuck out, yeah. And I one of the other reasons I ask, and and Steve and I uh were talking about this offline, which like he was watching a video about breaks, right? And I was like, here's my question. How do I know who this guy is? Like, how do I know he has his opinion matters or is good or what's his experience? Like, how do I, as a non-Steve, right? When I read all the reviews, I'm like, who are these people? Do they do they work for SRAM? Do they work for like I have no idea yet? Yeah. So I'm interested in how people research bikes because I realize that I am a skeptic. I think everyone is in it for something, right? Like every review I read or watch, I'm like, what's your relationship though? Like, what do you want out of this? When did you start going to group rides?

SPEAKER_03: 14:25

I started to go to group rides last year.

SPEAKER_01: 14:28

Um last year was your first year doing group rides? Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 14:31

I had my like nice new bike. Yeah. And I I rode it all through that winter. And, you know, since we don't get a lot of snow up here anymore, you could still ride. Um, you know, fingers crossed the snow comes back.

SPEAKER_01: 14:45

But right so it depends on the minute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:48

Snowed yesterday. Yes. My sister's yard was covered in snow. When you know, 2024 came around. I was like, I want to get more involved in the mountain biking community. I want to, especially outside of Hale. Hale was like my safe place. Yeah. I was, you know, riding with coworkers, people I knew, and but really wanted to get outside of that and get more involved. Okay. I want to say your woman's ride was the first group ride that I actually went on.

SPEAKER_01: 15:14

Really? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I just assumed you were going on, you know, all sorts of group rides. What kept you from trying group rides before that?

SPEAKER_03: 15:25

What kind of held me back was working at Hale, we host a lot of different events on our property. And so NEBA and our local NEMA chapter host events and it's a lot of men and a lot of, you know, and from a whole scale of skill, you know, or there. But when you look around, you can only like pick out the few women in the crowd. And from what I had seen online when group rides were posted and pictures were out, it was heavily, heavily men. Yeah. And as someone who has fun on a bike, but I'm not an advanced rider. Yeah. I'm not someone that's gonna go scale a mountain and come back down it. For me, it was a little intimidating. And obviously, like I've known you and knew that it was gonna be all women there and knew other women. Sophie was gonna be there. Yes. Yeah. So I'm like, this feels safe. And it's a good way to just ride with people that I don't know because I typically had only been riding with people that I knew. Yeah. Or were like also just getting into it. So it was safe to be within that, or like my brother, but he doesn't count because he has to love it. No, he doesn't count.

SPEAKER_01: 16:29

Yeah, no, it's true. It's like Steve doesn't count, right? Like absolutely. They do get they get in big trouble. They misbehave. You've done other group rides though since then.

SPEAKER_03: 16:37

I have. I have, yeah. Spread my wings and I have done other group rides and gone to festivals and yes, we were at flow state together, which was well, kind of fun, except when I cried.

SPEAKER_01: 16:48

Nothing to do with group rides.

SPEAKER_03: 16:51

What I really appreciated about it was really it's really fun to ride with other people, yeah. Especially if you're going through like a tough part of a trail, like you're in the suck together and you can like yell at each other and swear and motivate each other to just like get through it. Cheer. Yeah. I love you when we yell at each other. Cheer. Yes. Like in a positive way. Absolutely. And then like enjoy the fun times. And then you're all just like having a snack and you know, getting your water in and then hitting back on the trail. But it was also nice because it was an array of skill. So I didn't feel othered or just like the only person that had just been on a bike for really like the last year of their life. Yeah. When a lot of people have like, oh yeah, I've been riding for 30 years and you know, been a nemba memba since the inception of it.

SPEAKER_01: 17:38

I was there in the beginning. I wasn't alive, and that's okay. I think that's a fabulous comeback. There is nothing better than I mean, I don't love it when it happens to me, but there's nothing better when somebody will be like, Well, when I did that in whatever year, and somebody else goes, I was too. Oh, I love it. I love watching somebody's face just crumble, right? Yep, you're hella old. Thank you. You have now led rides. Yep. And what has that experience been like?

SPEAKER_03: 18:08

That's been really fun. Uh, I feel like when I've been riding with our coworkers at Hale, we as an organization really value being able to get outside and be active and appreciate what we have. And so we will at work, just a couple of us will get together and say, we're gonna go for a ride at lunch. And I feel like that has really been where my like ride leading had started was just leading around friends casually. But I do I've really appreciated seeing women like you and like Leslie riding and women that will just step up to take charge and not only lead women but also lead men. Yeah. And so I I really appreciate that because you do get just like take a bunch of people on a fun little ride, and hopefully you know where you're going and don't make a wrong turn. But even if you do, that's okay. We just turn right around and keep on going.

SPEAKER_01: 18:54

My philosophy is uh if they don't like that, then they can lead the ride. Yeah, but I feel like that's you know if they didn't if they didn't want to deal with me getting lost. Exactly. And we know I get profoundly lost, so it's the GPS, it's not you. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. It's interesting to me that as you have grown as a mountain biker, it does feel like Hale has grown as a mountain bike program and in particular the emphasis on women and girls. Is that a coincidence?

SPEAKER_03: 19:28

Is it a coincidence? Maybe, but I also think there's a lot of intentional energy being put into mountain biking, but also women in mountain biking at Hale's. Yes. Do I have a very selfish reason why we wanted to host some very women specific things? Yes, probably. And so, and also being able to bring in more support for that. You know, we brought in Chris Nichols to really run our mountain biking programming in 2023. So, really, as I started to peek up and we brought him on, just being able to have. That focus on those programs. But in conversation, he is he wants to see more women in the sport. He is definitely like a motivator, a cheerleader. And so he allowed me some opportunities, just very in small instances, to take the lead and constantly ask me to go on a ride with him and really just making the space welcoming and safer for me to be there with him. Where like Chris is a you know, can be an intimidating man for those who don't know. So to have that guy on your side, big personality. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 20:30

He's a big personality. Yeah, so just so we can track. So when Sophie started in 2021, mountain biking was a program. And then is it the next year that it became its own camp? Yes. Okay. And then Chris joined the following year.

SPEAKER_03: 20:49

Yep. He joined as a seasonal director for the summer of 2022 when it became its own camp, had its own structure, own leadership, own identity outside of the Hale Date Camp program. Right. And then he came back for another summer of 2023. And then we hired him on full-time after that because we are doing mountain biking in our semester school, which is our Intrepid Academy at Hale. Okay. So Boston's uh high school students come out, and so mountain biking is an option for them every single day while they're with us. So he was really supporting that and making sure that was a safe and quality program for them.

SPEAKER_01: 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:23

We do a lot of school-based programs where schools come to Hale for team building or experiential learning, environmental education, and mountain biking has become more of something that they're looking for. Yeah. We've also had our racing team to our club. We do youth clinics and adult clinics. Yeah. So all this community and programming really started to build up. And selfishly, I also wanted to be able to participate in some of these things, especially, you know, honing in on my skills, having more of our coworkers able to do that, and then really making sure that anyone in the community can have access to mountain bikes.

SPEAKER_01: 21:56

I mean, I think we call it selfishly, but the whole women's ride program that we have at the shop is selfishly because I wanted women to ride bikes with. I think sometimes if you focus on the things you know you need, that you're not alone in that, right? And if you if you just this is what I know I need, let's build a program around that, you will find people who also need it. I do believe that to be true. Which brings us to Everwild. Yes. What is Everwild?

SPEAKER_03: 22:27

To that point, exactly. Everwild really was a passion project where Chris and I were sitting down to plan out the spring, and we had started, what was it, 2021 when our girls' program Hail on Wheels. Hail on Wheels started was 2021, and we not intentionally didn't even look at the calendar at all, started it on International Women's Mountain Biking Day. Oh, and it wasn't until we actually looked at the calendar, we're like, hey, this really worked out pretty conveniently that it happened to be on this day. And so we're planning everything out from the races to the skill clinics, and looking at the calendar, I was like, oh yeah, International Women's Mountain Biking Day. And we had just wrapped up a big all skills clinic day with Nemba. Yes. And I said in my mind and then out loud, how cool would it be if it was just women? Yes. And I hadn't been to an all women's event before. I have since then. Yep. So I just hadn't seen that or hadn't been a part of it. And I was kind of sitting there, and Chris was just like, do it, go for it. And I walked, yeah. I walked to my coworker's uh desk across the hall and I was like, Hey, Jocelyn, uh, Jocelyn Bergeon, who works with me at Hale. Uh, she's a mountain biker, avid, outdoor girly. And so I just asked, Hey, I have this idea. Do you want to help me with it? And of course she said yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 23:48

And so she also is a mom of two two little girls, right? So they're starting to get on bikes. They sure are. So again, selfish, but still good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:00

So we were thinking, like, what would we want in this space? And we wanted it to be a full day with, you know, big aspirations down the line. Is it multiple days? Like the opportunities are endless. We're like, okay, let's bring it down for year one and let's just see, you know, let's do a day and see how it goes. And the idea was really to celebrate women already in the sport, you know, highlighting those that are doing amazing things, but also creating a space where we could invite more women and women that have never mountain biked or have just started into a space that feels safe and comfortable because they're surrounded by other women. Yeah. And we offered, you know, we wanted clinics for every skill level. So whether you're new or you're an advanced rider, there is something for you and you can continue to progress your skills on. We also wanted to have it be social. So there were group rides and marked routes. So if you've never been at Hale before, it's totally okay. Yep. We had vendors there. So if you wanted to look at bikes or gear or snacks or whatever, there were people there. And also, you know, NEMBA chapters. So that way, if you wanted to really start to dive more into it, you could go meet someone, whether you're not from our area, you're from the greater Boston area or another part of the state. Yeah. There was someone there that you could talk to to say, like, how can I do a group ride? Where do they exist? How do I get more information? And obviously we had food and beer because it has to be that. So we ended the day with a happy hour around a campfire. And but yeah, and we getting to that day, we, you know, invited the women in mountain biking that we knew to say, Kristen, hi, um, will you come help us while we get this off the ground? Because while we we know what we want to do, you know, again, like I hadn't been to big events, I haven't been to some of these things. So I'm like, what are your thoughts? What do we do for swag? You know, and all those silly questions that you may not always think about or the parts of it. And so inviting the people that have that experience to come help make it better.

SPEAKER_01: 25:51

And it was spectacular, I have to say. I love, I mean, I particularly love women's events. I particularly love women's rides. It was really great. Did you have any? I can't believe we asked this, but only because I've seen it elsewhere. Did you get, have you had any, did you get any pushback where like dudes were like, how come, how come something for us? What can we have?

SPEAKER_03: 26:15

You know, I don't have really any comments that came out of that. Yeah. It was really, I had we had a lot of men asking, especially in our local chapter, how can we help? Like, can we come and help? And for us, that was amazing. And we said, Of course you can, and you're gonna be in the background.

SPEAKER_01: 26:34

Um, no, no, I mean, I think that's important, right? Like, I think that's great. That's the feedback you want. Um, I know we got some questions from like dads of daughters that were the daughters were coming. And I think the first thing we was like, oh, can the dads register? What do we do with the dads? And I was like, Well, yeah, of course the dads, yeah, they can have lunch, right? Like they have to buy lunch, they have to, they're gonna be there. They're not gonna just drop their nine-year-old off and be like, see you next week. Like so, some of those learnings on the fly. I think you were really flexible and good as you handled it.

SPEAKER_03: 27:07

Yeah, and we definitely because hail is open to the public. And so there were, you know, folks out there riding that weren't part of our event, and you know, they came in and grabbed a beer, but like kept on moving, which was nice because we wanted the space to be, you know, very much female identifying focused. Yeah. And even, you know, the brewery work with they sent there to female staff. So that way it was female-facing part of the business. And, you know, our food trucks, again, they had more of their female staff present, and all of the vendors that we asked to bring in were either female-owned or female-facing. Right. And we really wanted that. And then we had the very few selected, you know, couple male coaches, but it's because they've already have a space of making women feel very comfortable. So we were totally, and it was our first time ever. So we're like, how are we gonna get so many female coaches?

SPEAKER_01: 27:58

You needed a lot of coaches, you had a lot of different clinics going on, so that certainly seems like one of your bigger challenges. Yeah. Still in it. Yeah, well, I I think it also it probably speaks a little bit to we'll call it the confidence gap of women. I mean, we see it with the women's rides, right? The number of people, women that will come into the shop and ask Steve a gazillion questions that he he will acknowledge. A guy would never ask him, right? Like a guy would just, or the women that I'll talk to, I think my favorite, like they'll say, Well, I don't know if I can, I don't know if I'm good enough for this ride. I mean, I did just come back from Sedona where I rode for two weeks, and then I was and I'm like, sweetie, yes, you can, you're good. But I remember somebody saying the first year that women underestimate their abilities by 30%. And then I also think that leads to, am I good enough to coach? Right? Like, am I good enough to be someone who coaches?

SPEAKER_03: 28:58

100%.

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

And I think more of us are more qualified than we think we are.

SPEAKER_03: 29:03

Yeah, and I think especially if you don't see a woman coaching often, then yeah, you're you don't have that person to look up to to say, like, oh yeah, she can do it. I could probably do it. Right. That woman does not know what she's doing, and look at her coaching.

SPEAKER_01: 29:18

This is so easy. Yeah, no, it's it's true. I think that's probably one of the bigger challenges is you don't necessarily have to be certified. I mean, that's great if you can go through the certification process. We know like Leslie has and a and a bunch of others, but but it's not actually a requirement to be someone who helps with the an event like that.

SPEAKER_03: 29:40

No, not at Everwild. Um, we just really want to find women that are passionate about passionate about teaching women and sharing their skills because that is how we learn. And, you know, we have some certified coaches, but the majority are not. And that's what makes it valuable because you can see like you don't have to go through this entire experience and get this expensive certification in order to pass on everything that you know to someone else. Right. And so, yeah, it's looking for those other women that want to step up and lead that, and also letting them know, yes, you can do this. Thinking of someone now, I just had a conversation yesterday about it, and I was like, you totally can do this. And it is just getting her to the point where she'll say yes about it. But everyone, you know, at hail, it's all about challenge by choice. You do it when you're ready. Um, I like that challenge by choice. And so when you're ready to do it, do it. If you don't want to hit that feature, not today.

SPEAKER_01: 30:33

Yep. Oh, I like that odd. Everwild is May 3rd this year, which is again International Women's Mountain Bike Day. So excited for it. We'll have links, links in the show notes. Um, let's go back to you as we wrap this up because we actually have a ride leader meeting in a couple of minutes. What are your goals for this year for yourself as a rider?

SPEAKER_03: 30:55

Whoo, goals for this year. I do want to get back to a festival. I was able to go to two last year. One was a women's festival elevate up in Vermont, and that was awesome. And then Flow State again up in Vermont. So definitely want to get continue to stay involved in community rides, leading rides with you in the women's series. And also, I want to get more comfortable throwing my bike off stuff. Um, you know, that's really something that I want to focus on. I did buy another bike. Um, so we're already another bike away from the canyon, and I also bought a gravel bike. So I'm graveling.

SPEAKER_01: 31:34

Are you? Yes, we didn't talk about it. Why did you decide to upgrade from the canyon?

SPEAKER_03: 31:39

I decided to upgrade from the canyon mainly because I felt I was riding beyond its capabilities. Okay. And so I wanted to do some trails and take it to other locations that I didn't think that bike was equipped to handle. Okay. And so I wanted to get a bike that I felt was fitting my riding style a little bit more, something that was a little bit more rugged and could handle more so it had more travel. Yes, more travel. I got a mullet, which is super trendy. Okay. So a 29 in the front and a 27 and a half in the back. Do you find that even that you can say stuff like that's exciting?

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

That you're like, I know my gear. I can say things like that with confidence.

SPEAKER_03: 32:19

Like that's a big change. Oh, yeah, to actually know what I'm talking about. But it's also because I have gone to clinics. I went to a mechanics clinic where I was able to learn all sorts of different things about my bike. My bike has juicy nipples, which is for your tires. Which no one may not know about juicy nipples for your bike. Yes. No, what nerve does that mean? Pretty they're essentially just caps that cover where you put tire in your air, but they're air in your tires. Yes, you put tire in your air, but I don't know that that would work very well. And they also allow you to they become a tool. So they're multi-purpose.

SPEAKER_01: 32:59

And they're pretty. They're pretty. I I'm again, I'm all about the pretty. And you and you bought a gravel bike. And how is graveling? Have you done much of that?

SPEAKER_03: 33:07

Yes. I've gone on a few rides, two that are 30 plus miles, and I have to really go seek out gravel out here, but spent some quality time in Plymouth, and it's super fun. It's the first time I've ever clipped in. Oh, big progress. Yeah, we've we're graduating through some progressions here, but yeah, I ride flat on my mountain bike and then I clip in to the gravel bike. So that was the first time. So that first ride was about a mile, just making sure I didn't tip over and figured out how to get in and out of the pedals really well. And but then yeah, have been able to manage 30 mile rides and feel really confident in the clip list, but I don't think I'll put them on my mountain bike. Okay. It just feels too sketchy at this moment in time. But you never know.

SPEAKER_01: 33:49

Yeah, look at the progress you've made. And um, yeah, around here is there's no gravel, it's all mixed terrain. First time I did a mixed terrain ride, I came home and my husband, it was a it was a group ride, and my husband goes, How was it? And I was like, answer me this. What does mixed terrain mean? And he said, Mix, it's a mix of terrains. I go, Oh, then it was great. We did it. We did it. Not my favorite. I've grown into it, but at the time I was like, really, should research things more before I read them. Any advice you would have to anyone who's thinking about doing this nonsense with us?

SPEAKER_03: 34:23

Oh, if you want to get into this nonsense, I would really say ask questions. If you know someone that is a mountain biker or is mountain biking adjacent, lean into them and have them be your starting place and just know that you're not gonna go from zero to a hundred in the sport. It does take time to understand the bike and how to ride. And skill clinics are so valuable to actually learn skills and how to approach things. It's gonna make riding a lot easier. You're gonna feel more confident doing it when you actually know how to do something. So don't be afraid to go and learn and just ask and have fun.

SPEAKER_01: 35:03

That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on our show. No problem. Thank you for having me. All right, we're back. All right, here's what I want to talk about with you. Love it talking to Jackie, love talking to riders who have really just started out on their cycling adventure.

SPEAKER_00: 35:19

Well, the other night uh I was riding with uh, well, a lot of a lot of guys on the on the Friday night ride, and there were two in particular who really only started during COVID.

SPEAKER_02: 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:29

Two guys I know, and they're actually quite good riders now. Yeah. But you know, I'm standing there and they're chatting about when one guy's telling a story about when he started, and the other guy's telling his story about when he started. And here I am thinking, wow, I have 30 years not of cycling, of mountain biking, even on you.

SPEAKER_01: 35:50

Yeah, oh no, and we talked about how is that possible? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 35:54

Um, seriously, and and oh, and they're they're roughly my age, too. So it's not like they're much younger. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:01

I know, and if you weren't, I mean, the fact is you either had to kind of self-introduce it, like you did to yourself, right? You you figured out mountain biking. I had no place in my life that that would have come up as a thing until I met you. Right. And I think that's what you're seeing with a lot of these newer riders. And I do think about how daunting it can be to start a sport when you're old. Older when you're not a child. It's I think that's what's so exciting about it because you're learning new things, you're challenging yourself in a way that maybe we don't do as grown-ups that much. But that's why I want to have these stories with riders like Jackie to find out how they got into it. And one of the things we talked about was how much there was to learn about gear when she started, right? She she did say the um what do you mean my bike doesn't come with pedals? Right? But of course I want pedals. And she was talking about how she researched, which brings me to a question I wanted to talk about with you. So up on the YouTube, a video sh pops up about the the sram breaks and me being just a very skeptical person, yes, was like, who's this ding dong? What does he know? Why should I listen to him? So that's what I'm gonna talk about. How do we research bikes? Like, how does somebody who is new, like we talk about your scene with scrolling while scrolling? I wanna know where should I be scrolling?

SPEAKER_00: 37:45

I think this is a whole episode in itself. Okay. I really do. So I don't think we can just leave leave this episode on that note, right? There's no quick answer to this.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 37:57

The so what I'll just leave it at this. So we can't.

SPEAKER_01: 38:00

You're gonna give me a quick answer, but we're gonna do an episode on this. Yeah. Okay, awesome. That's all I want.

SPEAKER_00: 38:06

You have to be very careful about a lot of reviews, and in in many ways, reviews have a ruining cycling.

SPEAKER_02: 38:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 38:16

And they're and they're ruining the purchasing of items in in general for a lot of people, because so much of it is now either sponsored content or people getting stuff for free and then just shilling out a nice review because they got it for free and they want to get more stuff for free.

SPEAKER_01: 38:37

Do they disclose they got it for free?

SPEAKER_00: 38:39

Yeah, sometimes, but that's just not always the case.

SPEAKER_01: 38:42

For the record, they have to. The FTC requires them to disclose if they got something for free or were compensated in any way.

SPEAKER_00: 38:50

Usually you will hear, like, I got sent these breaks. That's how they do it. And there's a lot of and there's a lot of there's a lot of good reviewers who will say they're not being compensated, or in some cases they went out and bought it themselves, which are great reviews. But they're always and oh, and then the worst are the reviews, they're like, oh, here are like the top, like top five, or something like that, and every single one has an affiliate like Amazon link, right? And you're like, those aren't the top, those are the top five that are available on Amazon, and I see that a lot with products that products and you know, like I'm like, mm, though these other two are really the best, oh, but but they're not sold on Amazon, so you're not even gonna include them, right? So you you get a lot of that. Uh so this is a whole yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:37

I mean, it may be a whole episode. I just it was so maybe quickly check if they're affiliate links, if they say that they're part of it for me is just because they got free stuff doesn't let me put it this way. I used to get a lot of free stuff when I was a someone considered to be an influencer, right? When I was a manic bombing, so I got a lot of free stuff. That didn't Make me an expert on most of it. Right. Right. That just made me somebody who had an audience. And if I was willing to talk about it, that could be considered a review. But but I'm as skeptical to say, like, who are you that you're qualified to be having this review? Like, how would I how would I know as a just average person?

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

In some ways, just an experienced writer is somewhat qualified to give their opinion on that product. And I don't, and I don't, and I see those and look at those and watch those myself. Um, and you start to get a sense of who is being more honest, who's not, who's giving you good insight, and who's not. Okay. Um but it's it's um it's a tough field out there for that. Um and and a lot of products nowadays will send their stuff out to get reviewed ahead of basically of the release schedule. Right. So all these products in the cycling industry are embargoed to a certain certain date, but they're already in the hands of a lot of influencers.

SPEAKER_02: 41:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:12

Uh a lot of YouTubers and other, you know, and of course, normal traditional media magazines and so forth. But in some cases, very minor YouTube people, right? And they and they get their hands on it and and so and they're and they're giving their opinion.

SPEAKER_01: 41:30

Again, as a former influencer, I can tell you there's a solid spray and pray strategy to some of this, which is just spray it out to as many influencers as you can and pray that they post something positive.

SPEAKER_00: 41:43

Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:44

No, no, that's it. I still get, for the record, Manic Mommies shut down. Let's say most recently shut down in 2020 because we came back for the pandemic. Right. It is now 2025. I still get emails inviting us to free events, asking us if we'd like to have an author on the show because they think they'll have a great take on marriage or parenting. Right. It's ridiculous. And I mean, granted, I don't have a bounce back coming, but you would take about four seconds to see that Manic Mommies is a defunct podcast. So do better, PR people. What would you like to talk about? Did you have any? I can go on to my next question.

SPEAKER_00: 42:33

What's your next question?

SPEAKER_01: 42:34

We we were coaching this weekend, and I was behind one of our little riders, and he was on a flat, so he's spinny, spinny, spinny, spinny, and I say, you should shift.

SPEAKER_00: 42:50

Ah, the direction and the yep.

SPEAKER_01: 42:53

Uh down, harder. What is the proper term? I wanted him to go into a harder gear so that his pedaling was more efficient. What was I supposed to say?

SPEAKER_00: 43:07

Okay, so this is where you have this there's the terms here. You have up shifting and downshifting. Okay. All right, and then you can sort of correlate that in higher gear, lower gear.

SPEAKER_01: 43:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 43:17

Okay. So upshifting, all right, because means going to a harder gear. Now, this gets a little confusing because you're going down the cassette, if you will, to the smaller cogs. So downshifting, you're going up to the bigger cogs in the cassette, means going to the easier gears. Upshifting easier gears, downshifting harder gears. Now, this has to do with the ratio and how gears are calculated. And here we we we call kind of call it gear inches. So it's a ratio of your front, your front crank and your front uh chainring, and you the call gear under the back. So that ratio of teeth basically creates a certain gear inches. And higher numbers when you calculate that equate to harder gears. And so that's why if you're up shifting, you're going to a higher gear inch ratio and therefore going to a harder gear.

SPEAKER_01: 44:18

Physically going down the cassette.

SPEAKER_00: 44:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 44:20

So up shifting is harder because I'm going down.

SPEAKER_00: 44:25

Right. And so a higher gear is harder. So you can kind of equate the H's, higher gear is harder, and then the lower gear is easier. Okay. Yeah, so a low gear is is easier.

SPEAKER_01: 44:37

Okay. Can I just say shift to a harder gear? Is that do I sound like a ding-dong? No. You can say that. Well, I want to sound like I know what I'm talking about, but I also because there's also my audience and I don't know what he knows.

SPEAKER_00: 44:48

Right. And and no matter how many times we say this, people just aren't gonna remember.

SPEAKER_01: 44:56

I've already forgotten.

SPEAKER_00: 44:57

You've already forgotten. It's already too confusing.

SPEAKER_01: 44:59

No, I can I can do shift up means to get harder. And I'll just remember that the physicality of that is the opposite. It goes down.

SPEAKER_00: 45:16

Yeah, there we go. So, you know, I might as well I'm gonna mention my one of my favorite websites.

SPEAKER_01: 45:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 45:23

Alright, it is gear-calculator.com.

SPEAKER_01: 45:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 45:28

There's a dash in there in between the gear and the calculator. It is, I use this all the time. And you can basically slide uh the little ruler and change your chain ring size, and you can so and you can add up to three different chain ring sizes at once, and then you can slide and change your different cogs in the back to whatever number of teeth you want. And you can or you can put in a preset, say a SRAM 10 to 52 Eagle cassette or something. And then you can change how you want it to compare all of those gear ratios. Okay. And I'll often do uh speed. So I'll say, okay, the cadence of 90 or maybe 100. So we're very high cadence, and I want to see how fast that will take me in that particular gear. And so, or how easy the gear is. And then that way I can then check different gear ratios across different ranges. Let's say you have a double chain ring up front with a 36-tooth cassette or you know, 36-tooth low low gear in your in your back, right? Okay. And you want to compare that to a one by. And you want to you want to say, well, what's if I have a 40 tooth up front, what do I need in the back to get the same easiest gear?

SPEAKER_01: 46:42

Because there's a lot of in that in the two by in the front, there's some redundancy, right?

SPEAKER_00: 46:49

Yeah, and you can actually physically see that in the chart when you do this. You go, oh, well, those two gears are basically the same, and those two gears are basically the same. So there's all there are overlaps on a two by where the front ring with whatever combination in the back is the exact same gear ratio as the large ring in the front.

SPEAKER_01: 47:06

Right. So you lose that with a one by, and you just would make in this scenario, you just want to see either you're trying to match what it already does, or if somebody has said, I'd like I'd like a better climbing gear, you can calculate that. Or you might say, I run out of gears when I'm going downhill, and you that's how you might calculate that to try to figure things out without actually physically swapping things out. Cool. I think that's actually all we have for today's show. As I said, I'm planning, we're planning on doing more interviews with more riders of of all generations, but I think a special focus on new riders. Yeah. It's interesting. Again, grown ups, grown-ups getting into things. It's I find it very exciting. Because you're right. A lot of us have been. We're now at the point where where you know you will have been mountain biking longer than some people have been alive.

SPEAKER_00: 48:05

Right. Don't say that. Don't bring that up.

SPEAKER_01: 48:09

Anyway, all right, we're gonna wrap this up. Cycling Together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bike shop in Eastern Massachusetts and Sundon Marketing.

SPEAKER_00: 48:18

Uh, if you'd like the show, please leave a leave a review or share with a friend for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic, suggestion. Visit cyclingtogether.bike. Uh, and you can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, uh, and YouTube at Steve the Bike Guy.

SPEAKER_01: 48:33

Thank you for joining the ride.

SPEAKER_00: 48:34

All right, we'll see you next time.