7. How to Buy a Mountain Bike for Speedy Kids & Teens (Part 1)

Whether you have a child thinking about joining NICA (National Interscholastic Cycling Association); NEYC (New England Youth Cycling) or racing solo, it starts with getting them the "right" bike. But the choices can be overwhelming, particularly for parents that may not be familiar with mountain bikes and mountain bike equipment.

Inspired by a recent Open House and Information Session we hosted at the Shop for our local NEYC, the Dover Demons, in the first in a two-part series we break down what to look for in a mountain bike for a “speedy” teen or child. 

We discuss the minimum you should plan on spending (retail) as well as what your kid needs (vs what their teammates might tell them) including dual-suspension vs hardtail; aluminum vs carbon frames; tubeless vs tubes; dropper posts, and the value of high quality components. With used bikes being a great option to get a high quality bike, we also discuss what to look for, and what to avoid.

During the second part we will be discussing the other gear kids need (or don't) as well as answering other questions.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

This is Kristen.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a show about all things bikes, riding, and riding together.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Happy snow day.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Yeah, it's a snow day here in New England.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

This is the complete opposite.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

The first of many in a row, I think.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Yeah, I was gonna say this the this is the complete opposite of last season when we get no snow. I like it. I'm here for it. Anyone who complains.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Yeah, this is a nice I live in New England. Yeah, this is and this is a good snow. This was four inches of fluff. It it took no time to snow blow and uh and then uh it got a little just just about freezing, so everything's melted off the pavement.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

And last year just made me sad.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

It's nice outside.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

No snow made me sad. Anyway, all right. This week we are launching a two-parter. Look at us.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

That much to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

We have that much to talk about. Uh these two episodes are inspired by last week. We hosted an open house, an info session for the Dover Demons. They are a team that are part of New England Youth Cycling for kids from grade five to grade 12. Right. Right. And that's called N U Y C. I keep wanting to call it nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Nice cycling league. Anyway, um, a little information about NUIC. They are the equivalent of their New England version of NYCA. NYCA, right. Right. For those people who are, because we have to be different here in New England. Um, so they are it's a it's a nonprofit organization. Their whole goal is getting more kids on bikes, they do um racing uh and rides for kids grades five to twelve, and then they actually have development riding programs for kids grades K to five, which I'm sure is because big kids were riding and little brothers and sisters were like I want to ride too. But just some some stats on N E C. Um, they have 30 race teams, they have uh 800, well, this is last year, 861 registered athletes, 430 registered coaches.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

So basically two to one.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Two to one, lots of, which is awesome. I mean to have parents and and grown-ups, and it's not just parents, I know a lot of grown-ups who are helping who don't necessarily have kids, but they just have an enthusiasm for getting kids on bikes and racing. Um, they average 534 racers and 125 volunteers per race. They do six races at six venues in three states. Um they're just cool. It's very cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I'm actually a little bit 17 league sponsors. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Um they do a special kids of uh girls of the league day, because of course girls are a minority in in racing, but we're working on it. Um they actually had 11 athletes went to nationals, right? Which is very cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Wait, so the they're allowed in the Nika nationals or is this USA national. USA cycling nationals. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um unfortunately not still not connected with NYCA, but it's a big, it's a it's a big organization. It's getting a lot of kids on bikes. It's just awesome. If anything, I um, you know, our kids just missed it, like just missed the start of it. They were already into their things. Um, but it's cool. It's a cool thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

And you can see with with five, I mean, what an average of 534 racers per race, um, they have uh grown out of some of their venues. I mean, that is a massive amount. So you figure those racers plus a parent or two, plus some siblings that are tagging along. Right. And you you've got you've got a lot of cars and a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Big event. I I believe at some of the venues they actually swap halfway through the day. So you have, you know, uh, the younger because the kids race their own grades. Um, so you'll you have a swap where in the middle of the day the younger kids are done and they go home and the older kids come in. I know they've added some venues this year. I think they did something at um uh Highland in the past for downhill. And you see these kids, even beyond the six races at the six venues, it is not unusual to see these kids in their NUIC kits at other races like landmine, and you know, so they're out there, the parents are racing with them. Um, the funny thing about the funny thing, I remember racing landmine, and there were like three or four of these nice kids in front of me. And I kept thinking, if you stopped jumping off of stuff, you would get you would go so much faster. But they just were so joyful, they were just having a blast, and they really didn't, there was no thought about where they were in the I'm like behind them and boing, boing, boing, boing, like any little thing, they would just boing. It's like riding with you, you know. All right. Um, but we got a lot of questions at the event. It was great. We we met a lot of new families, and there were a lot of questions about both bikes and gear. So that's what we're gonna talk about. We're gonna talk about getting bikes for speedy kids.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

We can get very much in the weeds here, and I could do an entire podcast just gibber jabbering tech talk all day long, and and that's gonna be a little too confusing. So we gotta stick to uh some big picture items here.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, so it's tricky. So let's talk about uh buying a bike, right? I was talking to one parent whose child is in the league, and they were saying that they were at another shop um that was selling mountain bikes to kids that they said were not great quality. And the concern the parent had was the kid is gonna be unhappy with this bike. Was the kid gonna be happy with this bike? And if they were unhappy with the bike, the money's already spent, right? So the parent isn't gonna get another bike, they're gonna say, Well, I got you a bike, and that cost, say you spent even you know, $500 on a bike, kid's unhappy with it, says I want another bike. It it's like that cost is always on top of whatever you pay next. You'll be like, Well, I've spent X amount in bikes. And I and I get it. Part of the issue is parents who are not cyclists may not know what they're buying.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yes, and and right, and I'd say for the most part, many or most of the parents of kids in this league are not cyclists.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Um, at least from what we've seen so far.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah, right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Um, or or certainly not uh sophisticated enough cyclists that they that they have been uh keeping track of what's going on in the industry and what's going on with parts and prices and designs.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Exactly. Um and the and the thing is, I mean, I get it. Like I get sporting equipment is expensive. All sporting equipment is expensive. Bikes have a unique position. I was thinking about this. Bikes, skis, right? So say you're somebody who wants to race ski. Um those are two sports that if you buy that equipment to race, you can also use that equipment recreationally, right? Right. But our daughter and our son um are lacrosse goalies, right? Right. That's expensive equipment. Never have they decided to just wear that equipment recreationally? Recreationally, right? You wear that equipment for lacrosse, you wear cleats for soccer, you wear, you know. Um so it is you it's it's they sit in a unique position that um they can be used multiple ways.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Yeah, and a lot of parents under like they have spent a lot of money on hockey equipment and lacrosse equipment and football equipment and so forth, which again, yes, is is used for the for the practice for uh thereof of the competition, right? For that, but then it's not used recreationally.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

And I think the other challenge is we all remember how much a bike was when we were kids. And if you haven't bought a bike in a while, you're gonna be like, what?

SPEAKER_02 8:25

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

You know, and and where growing up I never bought lacrosse equipment. I have no point of reference for how much lacrosse equipment should be. So let's start with a I think a basic question. How much is not enough for a bike? Now, not sale price, retail, because there's some amazing sales going on.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Yeah, let's just talk about the the sales situation right now. There are there have been and there are a lot of amazing sales, but those have are really dwindling down. Um most of those bikes have been sold, the ones that are left on these big clearances from the overstock period coming out of COVID and so forth, uh, are down to uh extra smalls or extra larges, but extra small might be very much great. Yeah, it might be great in this point. Right. So so we really have to we really have to talk from a baseline of uh retail price, right? Right, and not um some mega clearance sale.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Um, because if you can get a expensive bike on a mega clearance that brings it down to your budget, then it's always gonna be a better bike at the same price of a retail bike at that, right? Right. So um how much to spend on a kid's bike? I would say the minimum right now for something that's gonna get them going well is around 700.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Part of my question is just I'm an un I'm I'm someone who doesn't know bikes, right? I walk into a bike shop, any store, and I see a bike that retails for $300.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

That says it's a mountain bike.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yep. It's not my radar. Yeah, it's not a mountain bike.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

That's what I'm saying. My radar should go up.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

A bike that retails for 300 is even if it looks like a mountain bike, and I and I tell this to a lot of people a lot of bikes will look like what they're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

It's got a flat bars and it's got the front fork.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah, but it's it's not, it was never designed, never intended to be used off-road on trails. Yeah, it was really a $300 bike is only intended to go down a gravel recreation path. That's it. And that's sort of where I'm coming up with my $700.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Kids are really hard on equipment, really hard. Yeah. So the the better the parts, the more durable they are, and they will still break some of them, but um but less so, and they'll have much less problems out on practices, um, and just have an overall better time.

unknown 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

I mean, I know that you and I have talked about bikes from big box department stores um that you'll say they they look fancy, but that's they don't work, right? They have disc brakes, but the disc brakes are not straight. Yeah, they're they you know what I'm saying? Like so they so they look good to the uneducated eye, but really they're more flash than they're they're meant to look Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

I would say do not get something from a department store. You really need to get what I call a bike shop brand. Okay, right. And and so those are all of and and every every nice bike brand, it's gonna have a very, very similar model to each other. Okay. It's hard to go wrong um with a lot of the bike shop brands. Well, let's talk about let's talk about pricing. So, so in terms of the value there, because as I just said, like sort of if you were spending a minimum of 700, but the thing is, is that spending 200 more, 300 more, 400 more gets you in that kind of case, a lot more. It can get you a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Uh, if you were to spend 2000, but then and then but there's another bike that's 2400, you're probably not getting a whole lot more. Very diminishing returns. But in that in that uh entry level, we're gonna still call these entry level bikes, um, that there can be very rapid uh increase in the quality of parts with each hundred dollars spent. Okay. Um, so that's where you you it's really important to not underbuy um when when just a little more um could have gotten you a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

And and if you have an absolute ceiling in that in that price, then it becomes a little bit more important to really uh educate yourself and look around and shop around and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Well, some of this can come down to can bikes be are are you buying a bike that can be upgraded in the future, right? Like there are some bikes that could you put a dropper post on it someday?

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Could you upgrade like how much where some are I I would say that when you're in that sub thousand category, while you could upgrade these bikes, you're probably better off selling that bike and then getting another bike with the things that you want. When you start spending uh 1200 and up, then you probably have a lot of core items, uh especially the frame. Um, the fork is where a lot of stuff comes down to. Um, but but at that point, then upgrading some things can be worthwhile. Okay. And keeping that bike longer.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

And let's I so with with NYC, we're mostly talking about cross-country racing.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yes, correct. Cross-country racing, which is what which is what NYCA is also. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

And those are different kinds of bikes. And say if you have a kid who's decided to do downhill racing. So so we're it at some level we're talking about a certain kind of bike.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah, and and all of these at these lower price points are are hearttails. I should just make sure we say that.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

But let's start with that. So we have a our our friend who's a coach, and I asked him, what are some of the things you'd like us to include in a conversation about this? And he and one of the first things he said was um the kids all thinking they need dual suspension. Right. And that means a fork in the front and suspension compression in the back. Right. Um and this is where I want to be aware of there is nothing cooler than um having an open house or a tech night, and all these kids are standing around, A, talking to each other and b talking about gear and bikes, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Kids quickly become gear heads.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Oh, totally. But that's also where there's potential price escalation. I know you say like there's no top end to what you can pay on it, but but you're gonna have pressure from like one kid has dual suspension, one kid does one has carbon, one doesn't. So that's where it's important for you to know what they really need. So hardtail versus dual suspension.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah, and and uh and then this let's start with hardtails. And as you just mentioned, there's sort of these what you were doing is cross-country racing. Yeah. Okay, but for a lot of these kids, the race them itself might be cross-country, but then the practices and their general riding that they're doing out there is not cross-country. These are these are these are kids and they're gonna they're gonna be jumping off things and and um you know, banging into things, and it's and they need, I I believe, it's my opinion, they need something a little more robust. They need more of a trail hardtail, not a cross-country hardtail.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Those are different? Those are different. What's what's the difference?

SPEAKER_02 16:29

So a trail, a trail bike is gonna have, it's gonna have a little bit more of a relaxed head tube. So the steering isn't as quick and sharp. Okay. It's gonna have longer travel in the front fork. Okay. Uh, it will typically have a wider tire.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

So on a on an entry-ish, to you know, you might find um to even a mid-level cross-country bike, you might find 2.2 tires, 2.25, that kind of thing. Whereas on a trail bike, you might see 2.4, 2.5, maybe even 2.6. Okay. Um, and so overall, and then usually the trail bike um would come with a dropper, but um, but it might not at the very first price points. Okay. Um, so this is a bike that would be the kids gonna be able to bang around more, jump off things easier and better without breaking. Um, it will be and and you say, well, it what's the compromise there? I suppose it is technically it's gonna be a little heavier. Okay, because it's a little burlier and the forks a little bigger and so forth for more travel. Um, so the the it could be a little slower, and I'm gonna air quote that, right? Um, and that's the concern. So if you have an if you have an older teen, this usually comes, or somebody who's really into um, you know, podium, podium, winning, winning, winning, right? Then you're probably looking for that that weapon of a bike for them. Yes. I want to find those five seconds for my kid, right? Or yeah. And um, but otherwise, you're probably better off with a trail bike and get them going like that. And it's not really that much of a compromise in the race situation.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Okay. It's where there's a significant jump, right, in price between a hardtail and a dual suspension. Yep. Um let's talk carbon versus aluminum frame. Let's talk about the frame itself.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Again, entry level.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Entry level is always going to be aluminum. So which is um heavier. Yeah, it's it's just heavier, but uh like perfectly good. Just absolutely 100% a great material, right? It's just just just heavier. Tougher?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Um, like, like again, more durable on the whole, like it it doesn't crack, it it dents.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah, that's that's that is always what I've heard. A tough call, right? Okay. So uh in terms of the durability. So yeah, so you could you could say crash in a whole in a rock garden and the bike goes bouncing and and the the one of the tubes smacks into a rock and it puts a dent in it, the tube. Yes. Okay. Uh usually in most kids situations that dent is no problem. Right. Keep on riding that bike.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

A carbon frame can actually take a higher impact than the aluminum can before like the same impact that would dent an aluminum frame would do nothing to a carbon frame. Okay. But uh you get to an impact force where it would crack the frame and then that frame is done. Right? So um that's you know, and and again with carbon, with a carbon hardtail, you're uh excluding sales, you're probably looking at at least $2,000.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Okay. Um to get To get basically some lighter weight. But there are every every bike brand usually has an overlap.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

So they'll have they'll have the say that take the same aluminum frame and they'll put on entry parts and mid-level parts and high-end parts. And then they'll take their carbon frame and do the same thing. So you could have a the their best aluminum model with significantly nicer parts than their lowest carbon model. And sometimes, yeah, sometimes though that best aluminum model will be lighter than their you know their lowest carbon model. Um because the parts as you get this is the funny thing. As you get as you get better in parts, you will get you get lighter, okay, but you actually get more durability.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Really?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah, because there's way more engineering in the materials that they're using. The quality of the materials they're using is is so much better. So the funny thing is that uh high quality, high strength aluminum parts that you find um in a lot of bike components is way stronger than the steel parts you find in the very lowest end parts.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Oh okay. Um all right, we talked about uh dropper post.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Need them, don't need them. How important is a dropper post?

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Uh very, very nice to have. Don't necessarily need it.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Especially if I mean, so the the point of the dropper post is to get it out of your way, saddle out of your way so you're when you're going down something you can get back.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, but most courses, most cross-country courses for kids are not gonna have something that is um a dropper is really needed.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

I love when you pick up my cue. That's exactly what I was hoping you were gonna say. Yeah, that is, it's it's I mean, we talked about that the Cannondale Trail one is unusual in its pricing because it comes with a dropper.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

With a dropper, which is nice. Yep, but it's and you can add a dropper to many bikes. That is something to look for when you're looking for a bike. Yeah. Is that so so you can basically add a dropper to almost any bike. Okay, but there's internal and external droppers, and what that means is where the cable is connected to the post. Yep. So internal is inside the frame, and you need a port on the bike to get that cable inside the frame and up to the dropper. Yes. Um, and a lot of bikes have that now. If you're looking at used bikes, and I should say a lot of entry-level bikes have that now, but if you're looking at used bikes, many of the former entry-level bikes didn't have that.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

I was gonna say, I remember one of our riders in our women's group who has a hardtail asking you if you could put a dropper. Right. She was very sad you could not. Yeah. Right? Because we do have some significant drop things, you know, going down where where in our local trail and she's watching, she's riding behind me, and I'm dropping that thing like it's hot. You know, I I I drop, I use the dropper quite a bit. But to your point, on the on these cross-country races.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah, now they probably want it outside of they'll probably want it outside of the race. And and it gets into the whole uh, you know, situation with peers that their peers have a dropper and they don't. You know, this is where this is gonna be one of the toughest things for parents to negotiate. And I I suppose this was always the thing with what clothes maybe at school and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

All of it, all of it, right? My kid only wears um name a brand, Under Armour. Like I remember, I remember being in school, at the kids were in school, and one parent was like, My kid only wears Under Armour. I was like, My kid only wears Circo, um, which is the Target brand. Um there's always peer pressure, yeah, right? It's always who has the best lacrosse head, right? Like the best shit.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

And I would put it, I put a shout out to the coaches that try to tamp down that that peer-to-peer pressure about about gear.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

You hear it, you know, and I don't think the the kids are meaning anything, but you hear it when they're talking, and the one kid who just knows all the things, and he's just a true gear head, and he'll be like, Well, you gotta get the this and you gotta get the that. And get, you know, that's where it's important to have someone you can talk to that can say, no, you know, do you really how are you riding this bike outside of the racing, right? Um, because there's a thing, there's a term, it drives me a little nuts. You and I have talked about it, where people we'll say, like, is that too much bike for you? And and what we're what the mechanic is trying to say is, is this really too much more bike than you need for where and how you're riding, right? So if you're not remember, we had the one kid who bought a downhill, like Enduro mountain bike, and then he went for a ride with his parents, and his parents knew, like he bought it. So his parents were like, that is not the right bike for around here. No, no, no, I have to have it, I have to have it. And sure enough, I was talking to the mom, and she was like, Yeah, he's always complaining, it's too heavy.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Yeah, it's way, way too heavy, it's inefficient to pedal, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

For the trails. So that's where it's really there's the racing, and then there's which is what's cool about bikes, there's the racing, and then there's how else are you gonna go to Highland a lot? Are you someone who's just down to local trails, which is downhill mountain bike park, right? Like, so that's okay, so dropper post.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Yeah, well, that just just to follow up, just to finish up on the dropper post, uh, there are external dropper posts, which you can add basically add to any bike. But uh now, since the bikes that aren't internal capable are few and far between, yeah, there's way less external dropper availability. So there's only a few choices, uh uh just a couple price points, and um, so it's just it's easier if you can if you can get an internal one.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Okay, uh tubeless versus tubed.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Mm-hmm. Um so here's another thing that's been trickling down over time. So it used to be that your entry level mountain bike sub-thousand, um, even up to maybe this the lower, you know, thousands, um, you know, twelve hundred or so, they um they would not come uh with tubeless ready tires and rims. Now, yes, it will be said that that bikes that get delivered to bike shops have tubes in them, even if you can make them tubeless. They just don't set that up at the factory. That is to be done after the fact. Oh, right? Yep. Um, so but a lot, a lot of of um entry-level bikes, um they didn't used to have tubeless rims, they didn't have tubeless tires, it really wasn't possible. And then there started to be a conversion where they were coming with rims that were tubeless ready, but not tires. And in some cases, if you set it up tubeless, that worked. Yes. Um, but you could always then buy new tires, but that are tubeless, but again, right? You're buying a new bike, why, right? So, but as we've as we've uh progressed, so to speak, it's it has become more and more common for even the entry-level bikes, entry level not being the $300 bike, more the more the $700, $800 on up, to have um tires on rims that can be tubeless. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

And the advantage of this is if they get a flat during a race. Well, like do they do they need them? I guess. Do they need them? Do they need that? Right. How many times do you get a flat during a race?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Do they know? But this can be this can come down to your location because there are some locations around the country where flats are very common because of thorns. Um, or or sharp rocks.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

One family was telling me, I think they were talking about Arizona. Oh, Arizona's bad. Yeah. They have these like they're like little it the the dad said, you know those things that cops throw out of their car to to pop your tire? It's like nature's doing that.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

And they said that that even tubed tires, shops are putting tubeless fluid in the tube because they're just burning through tubes, which I was like, that sounds awful.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

So yeah, and this and this is where a tubeless setup would um you're you tend to get less flats. And and the biggest, I don't I don't want to talk necessarily about race day for this, but more about day-to-day practices with your team. Yeah. And this is where it could be easier in terms of less flats and therefore easier on the coaches and the team not waiting and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Right. Um and if you get a flat, it's easier because you would patch it, you wouldn't have to take the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah, you can plug a tubeless hole if it doesn't matter. Also easier for the coach.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah. I mean, also easier for the coach.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Like say they get if they're if they're familiar and capable of plugging tubeless, right? But tubeless does require maintenance, it requires fresh sealant every three to four months. Um and maybe a little bit more during during high usage times. Right. Uh or often. So um, yeah, there's that's all. Um, you do you need it? No, but if you can get it or at least have it available to to you.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Okay, let's actually, I want to take a little step back, actually, because we've got we're talking about kids as young as with N E Y C, not even the development team, fifth grade. Yeah, 10. These are these are little people.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

These are little people.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Um, there's a temptation to buy a bike that they will grow into.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, and this is talk to me about sizing a bike, for example.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

One of the hardest things for parents, right? Because you are going to have to go through multiple bikes throughout their uh kids have a bad habit of growing, man.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

They do and sometimes like that.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Yes, and there are years where they they can grow out of a bike in that one year. I mean, you can grow when if you grow four or five inches, which is possible for some of these kids in a year, uh you're you're out of that bike.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I swear when the kids were in those growth spurts, I would be like, I think I just saw you shoot up in my peripheral vision. Like, I swear you just move, you just just an inch, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

So it but but fit is super important on a bike. So you really want you you don't want to you want to get a bike that just if you have a growing kid, you want to get a bike that just fits. Like they're on the they're they're on the bottom scale of that fit range for that particular bike size. Okay, right? So that's how they're growing into the bike. You don't want to get one that is the next sized up.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

And and the other thing to keep in mind is geometry matters, right? Like you can have a bike that is quote unquote the same size, and it might not work as well for one kid as it does for another, depending on how they're oh absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

And and um this was always a puzzling part of say department store bikes, um, is that their geometry was horrendous. Uh, like just just and when I say the geometry, I mean like the standover clearance and the length of the bike and the angles and so forth, so the steering, how that went. And the thing is, is that geom good geometry doesn't cost a company money. So the angles and the lengths and the tubes and so forth doesn't cost any more than doing it right. Right. So you know, that is um, and basically those a lot of those bikes were just very they're cramped, they're unstable, um, they they don't pedal efficiently. It they're just um yeah, so that's so that can matter.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah, absolutely. Um, the wheel size for kids' bikes versus grown-up bikes?

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Kids' bikes are done by wheel size, one frame and and you know, one one one frame with that wheel size. So, so typically you're gonna be starting, I suppose, very small uh fifth graders would be on a 20-inch right, and most of them are probably gonna be on 24. Okay, and then so 26 is after that. Now 26 used to be the de facto mountain bike size wheel, but that doesn't really exist anymore for adult mountain bikes. Yep. Um, but it does for some junior bikes.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Right? Not but uh not every brand makes a 26-inch junior bike.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Um, and then you get to 27 and a half, which is you is often found on extra small and small adult bikes. Okay. Um, whereas then when you get to their larger sizes, it often moves to the so that the the norm, we'll call it now, is 29 inches. 29. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Sometimes these bikes look gigantic under these little kids. Like it fits them.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

They do still and and it's remark and I and I will say, yeah, sometimes sometimes is a case where some of these little kids are on they're getting on the right size bike in terms of they're just they're just into that fit range for that size bike, and it can look very big big on them. Right. Uh, more so than it would say with an adult. Um, but it's remarkable how a lot of these kids are able to handle that bike. Oh, yeah. Um, because it is in their fit now fit range, right? Even though it can look a little bit odd. And it's just because they have they have smaller hands and smaller heads and smaller bodies.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Exactly. They're all out of proportion. Yeah. Um, used bikes, bike swaps as an option. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Always always a used bike is a is a great option to get more bike for the same money. But but if you're not savvy in bike parts, um then be very, very careful there or find somebody who is to get advice from. Um, and also expect to have to take it right in to get serviced, yeah, and potentially some new cables, maybe a new chain, maybe new brake pads. Um, a lot of those stuff are worn out on on used bikes.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Well, that's I mean, and and there is such a thing as too old a bike or a bike that maybe Yeah, it's it's it's it's seen its end of life.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

It's seen its end of life. Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

And it can be really hard, and then you can end up again with a a a racer who has a bike that keeps braking, and there's just at some point only so much a bike shop can do for it, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah. Um, so yeah, let's should we talk about parts a little bit in terms of absolutely so um the very entry level on the very entry-level parts you're gonna find on a mountain bike are usually 99% of the time made by Shimano. So SRAM, the other big component company, they used to make um entry-level, mid-level mountain bike parts, but they don't really anymore.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

So the market's really all Shimano. Um, and Shimano makes this one component group called Tourney, and that is found on your lowest end bike shop brands. Okay, okay. Tourney is not acceptable for racing on. It it is it is does it is mostly made out of stamp steel, and it will only do anything on flat-ish rec paths. Okay, that's what it's designed for, even though it's put on mountain bikes.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Okay. So if you're out there now, tourney is I I I don't know if it's going away with the new component changes. I think it's still gonna be out there in the very lowest level of price points. So it really should just stay away from tourney.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Okay. And these are all listed. When you when you look at a bike, it's on the specifications right away.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah, but it also says tourny on the rear derailer. Oh, right, and then on the front derailleur. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yep. Um, and so and but if you're looking at a used bike, you might see a lot of of these bikes with tourney on them. Okay. Uh, you know, from the big brands, Trek and Specialized and so forth. Just just back right away. Okay. All right, good to know. Um Okay, so then the next the next level up from Turny are gonna be one of Shimano's three entry-level group sets. Okay. So that's gonna be Acera, Olivio, and um Altus.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Okay. Um, and these are gonna range between seven, eight, and nine speed. All right. Um they're actually all fairly equivalent groups. Like, um there are definite differences between them, but they're way more robust than turny. Okay. And so if you find a bike with one of these, a used bike with one of these, you're you're probably okay. The the more speeds it has in the back, usually it's gonna be the better of the component groups. Oh, okay. So the seven would seven would be the cheapest. Yeah, eight would be there's a little bit of a cross between them, and nine's gonna be the better.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Um, and um so, but all of these component groups, or I should say, the the the three A's, um, have been replaced by what's called Qs. And we talked about that the other day.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Um, so C-U-E-S. So Q's is a a new component line from Shimano that replaces all of these entry groups. Um, and it comes in nine, ten, and eleven speed. Okay. Um even though the parts all use 11 speed spacing.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Okay. And this is again the number of cogs in the back.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

The other thing is that the um the Alta Cesarea and Olivio components, they usually were not one by. Um, so they didn't mean they had uh either two or even three chain rings in the front.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Again, if you're looking at it, if you're looking at a bike for this kind of purpose for your kid, stay away from anything with three chain rings in the front.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Uh if you find something good, a good deal, a nice bike with two in the front, uh, okay. Okay. Um, but ideally you do want that one by.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah. Um why and why do we want that one by?

SPEAKER_02 38:44

It's just simpler for kids to use. So now you only have one shifter controlling the rear.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

The rear would have, if it's a one by, it has a much larger cassette range in the back. Yep. So you're not you're not giving up easier gears.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Um, and now all the kids have to do is shift easier or harder. Heck, that's this is what the adults are using, right? We're all using one by. Yeah. Right. So um, yeah, the kids should have that too.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

That's the biggest, not the big one of the challenges with kids' bikes or even entry-level bikes, and we talked about this a little bit um with like when we got into cyclocross, right? Like I was the entry, I was the beginning racer, and yet I had the heaviest bike, right? Which was really annoying. Um, versus, you know, the same with the kids. I always joke that the littlest kid, the four three-year-old, has the heaviest bicycle because made out of steel, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Like, there are there are there are times when a kid's 24 inch bike will weigh more than the parents.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Exactly.

unknown 39:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

And I totally get it. I totally get it. But also, you're like, it's kind of astounding kids ever start riding bikes when they are hauling basically a bag of bricks around with them. So um used bikes, so it says that there are bike swaps. I know, um One of our local bike shops has a big used bike swap that they do once or twice a year. Um bike shops like ours actually have some um consignment bikes, right? Pre-owned consignment bikes. So that's one great way. Um, how likely is it that you can get a bike and then bring it to a shop to have it checked before you buy it?

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Oh, I mean if I mean certainly to ask no, I mean I if somebody brought me a bike to say I'm thinking about buying this bike kind of like you might do with a car, or you might bring it to your own mechanic before you bought it. I mean, sure, most shops will do a a service.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

It can't be underestimated or described the idea that these are kids and teens on bikes, and there's definitely whether it's right or wrong, you know, comparison of a comparison, like, and we just want to make sure the kids are on the right bike. And then we also make sure that the parents know what they need to know so that when their kid comes and says, I, you know, little Johnny says, I need this thing, you can say, actually, you don't like this is what you have, this is why it's right for you. So I think one of the reasons we wanted to do this was so that the parents were more informed because there is pressure, it's not right, but there is there is gonna be just press, you know, that's what happens with kids. Um, suspension forks. The suspension forks, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

So most of the entry-level bikes um have uh suspension forks might made by uh Sun Tour. Yes, and uh, and then once you get up to the better bikes, you're gonna see either a rock shocks um or a fox. First, you'll start seeing rock shocks, and then you'll start seeing fox and rock shocks.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Um, so Suntour makes a lot of a lot of different models of entry forks, and they start off by being spring activated. So, unlike the better forks, which have an air chamber that you pressurized based on the rider's weight to tune it, um, these just come with a big coil spring. And coil springs can actually be very smooth and responsive. The problem is, well, one, they're not tuned to the rider's weight.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

And um they're also put in forks that are not built that well. So a lot of these forks have what's called stiction, and it takes a lot, which is basically the friction of getting of all of the moving parts of the fork um together, and it takes a lot to overcome that friction to get the fork moving.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

So um it's important to sort of feel the difference as you're looking around at bikes to feel and push down on that front fork and see what it takes. And you'll notice a huge difference between a fork that has that sort of moves right away with pressure and and sort of smoothly goes down through its travel, and one that you have to really give this initial oomph push to get going. Okay. Right. And when you're talking about kids who are lighter weight, right, it that those just don't work that well.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Um, and now they now SunTour makes some of their models work with with coil springs, can work amazingly well. Okay. Um, but unfortunately, most of and again, as you get up in higher price points, you're more likely to get one that feels better. Okay. But I would test that out.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Tests for the sticktion. Yeah. You guys are just making up words now. You're just making up words. Anything else on bicycles for speedy kids?

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Uh, without, you know, again, without going too much on the weeds, right? We which we've already done.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

In future episodes, we will go into the weeds. And next week, um, well, if people have questions, we can answer them then. But next week we're gonna be talking about all the other gear that um kids may or may not need. Um, because as I said, this was already. Look at how how long this took us. STBG Tech Talk, what do you got for us?

SPEAKER_02 44:02

This week, so this week, uh, what came up is that I have to um move uh a set of hydraulic disc brakes over to another frame. Okay. And a lot of times when you do that, your the length of your hoses might might not be long enough. So you have to replace the hoses. Okay. Okay, so I want to talk about that briefly in in two forms. One is um, yeah, you can easily from all of the different bike brands get replacement hoses. Okay. You know, a new hose kit. Some of these brakes require just a straight hose with fittings that you put in the end, and others require a very special end to go on the caliper, which is called a banjo connection. Um and yeah, so you have to get the right hose kit for that for that application.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Okay, but what I wanted to talk about here actually is is that if this kind comes up and you do need to replace hoses, whether you damage one um or you have you're switching bikes, is that there's something a lot of people don't realize exists, and that is a um hose kits from Jaguar. Oh. So every every brake brand, Shimano, Sram, Makura, you know, all of them like that, Hope. Um, they're just black hoses.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Okay. Jaguar makes colors, and so you can get a whole range of colors, yeah, and then you buy the fitting uh kit to go into that hose kit for your particular brake model. Okay. Um, and and it's just gonna be a really cool, unique way to customize a bike that a lot of people just don't know about. Yeah, no, no. I almost never see a bike with different colored hydraulic hoses, but I have myself done it for people often when we're building up something.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Yeah, no, I think the funnest part, one of the funnest parts about bikes, um, especially, and I know you're not alone in this, but when they come out of the shop is like the little things that um, you know, you look at the bike, you're like, oh, it's a beautiful bike. And then people will be like, oh, look it on the on the wheels. Like he changed out the um for the for the air intake. That would be called valves. Some valves take. Sometimes he puts it just little, like, oh, he changed the he crimped the end of cables with blue instead of plain black. Like those little things make a huge they're just fun, right? Like bikes should be fun.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah, one of the biggest things though is that m most, I don't want to say most shops, some shops uh take the bike out of the box from the factory, yeah, put it together, and sell it. Yes. And the idea. Yeah, but the problem there is that most bikes that come out of the box do not have optimized cable lengths, housing lengths, and so forth. And so, especially with dropper posts. And so you've got this wild nest of cables that are too long or in the wrong position and so forth up front. Right. Uh, yeah. So, you know, shops like myself like to optimize that, even though it takes us extra time that we're not getting paid for.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

You make the you make the cockpit look nice and neat.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

You can sometimes you wrap you wrap cables to housings together to make them a unified unit and make them look nicer.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

You still do the um remember the bike that I rode in Switzerland? You used these like beads that that covered the cable.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

That's actually a uh another Jaguar kit um that is a um made out of the housing, is basically a series of aluminum, yeah, like beads that you put together to make it compressionless, yeah, and with a sleeve inside, and yeah, that's oh, they still have those? That oh, they still have those. Those are cool.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah, there's like jewelry. It was very bicycle.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

That's a very high-end product, though. And because most people in the higher end of the market are now getting electronic shifting, that's you sort of you kind of see that go away. Right, yeah, because you because it's only for shift cables, and that's why it's sort of kind of going away.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Well, they were very pretty on my Scott Spark. Yeah, right? That was on my spark. All right, well, that is it for this week. Cycling Together with Kristen and Steve. It's a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bike shop in eastern Massachusetts and Sundon Marketing.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Uh, and if you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend. Uh for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic, suggestion, please visit cycling together.bike. Um, and you can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and Steve the Bike Guy.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Thanks for uh listening or watching and for joining the ride.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

See you next time. So uh and then and then like for Shimano, they came into this whole um these these three other groups. Um and Asara, Olivio, and if you think I know the answer to it, you're out of your mind.